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Taiwan
Several edits have been made to add Taiwan to the list of countries where same-sex marriage is now legal. Although a bill to legalize SSM was approved on 17 May, media reports say that it won't go into effect until 24 May. Unless this changes, it would be premature to say that it is legal in Taiwan before 24 May 2019. Bennv3771 (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Methods
How about we include a table or a map to note the avenues each political entity has taken to legalize same-sex marriage (e.g., court decision, legislation, referendum, initiative, etc?). TheUnknown285 (talk) 02:34, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Same-Sex couples' Children do not "fare better" than Opposite-Sex Ones
@Guycn2: Seen that gay and lesbian couples are discriminated/persecuted, it seems odd that their children grow healthier and happier than the children of other couples. So that implies at least WP:REDFLAG. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with what he said, since those research articles only have "some" people arguing that same-sex couples have "better off" children. Most researchers do not believe that. You could also find research stating that straight couples have children who "fare better" than those of same-sex parents. BobRoberts14 (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- Freshacconci and Sander000 also agree that this claim is not sourced and should not be included in the article, since they reverted Guycn2's edits. BobRoberts14 (talk) 21:46, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- If we were to deal with dictatorial countries where gay and lesbian couples are discriminated against and persecuted, this indeed would be odd to assume that their children grow healthier and happier. But in this article we are not dealing with counties like Russia or Iran where homosexuals are persecuted. We are dealing with the western world, where both same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption are permitted by law. Countries where same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption are illegal are not relevant for this article; it is obvious that children to same-sex couples in Russia will not grow healthier and happier.
- In my opinion it completely makes sense that children to same-sex couples are more likely to grow happier. Since same-sex couples experience many difficulties in bringing a child into the world, it is far less likely that they will neglect their children, for example. They are also far less likely abuse or mistreat their child, since adoption agencies check the petitioners' qualification before placing children in their home. Adoption agencies also check the petitioners' financial status before letting them adopt a child, so children to same-sex couples are also less likely to grow without basic living needs. That's why researches that have found that children to same-sex couple are more likely to be healthy and happy are not odd at all. They make perfect sense.
- Also, note that these findings are not rare. Many researches throughout the last decade have found similar findings. Guycn2 · ☎ 21:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- You're not citing any sources, you're just making unlikely claims. It is far more likely that for children of same-sex parents, they are worse off. They are far more likely to be bullied in school because of the sexual orientation of their parents. I'll add more later but have to go for now. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BObRoberts14
- That's a confounding variable, so the claim is not generalizable. Also, being lawful does not mean that discrimination has stopped. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Freshacconci: and @Sander000: both made the same edit as I did, and they agreed that your claim of same-sex couples' children being "better off" is highly contentious and needs proper sourcing. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- Nobody claims that they are "better off". Most researches have found that children to same-sex couples grow just as well, while a few other researches have found that they are likely to grow even better. Whether it's true or not, that's what researches have found. And whether you agree with the researches' findings or not, the article should still reflect them. Your claims, however, are completely unsourced. "They are far more likely to be bullied in school because of the sexual orientation of their parents" – where did you get this misleading data from? This is your own speculation. This is not based on any research or statistics, as far as I know. Guycn2 · ☎ 22:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Fare better" and "better off" mean the same thing, since you said it is because of their same-sex parents. Now you are going to say that you never made edits saying that they "fare better"? And my "claims" are not in the article, they are just in the talk page, and they don't need to be sourced for anyone who knows LGBTQ parents. I have met multiple, and from my experience, their children are bullied more often than their peers. Your claims are the ones in the article, and they are the ones that need to be sourced. LGBTQ children, even if their parents are very well off, still are disadvantaged because of their parent's sexual orientation. "Some researchers" found that the Holocaust never happened. That doesn't make their "research" true, since the majority of researchers did not find that. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- Nobody claims that they are "better off". Most researches have found that children to same-sex couples grow just as well, while a few other researches have found that they are likely to grow even better. Whether it's true or not, that's what researches have found. And whether you agree with the researches' findings or not, the article should still reflect them. Your claims, however, are completely unsourced. "They are far more likely to be bullied in school because of the sexual orientation of their parents" – where did you get this misleading data from? This is your own speculation. This is not based on any research or statistics, as far as I know. Guycn2 · ☎ 22:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Freshacconci: and @Sander000: both made the same edit as I did, and they agreed that your claim of same-sex couples' children being "better off" is highly contentious and needs proper sourcing. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/07/children-of-same-sex-couples-are-happier-and-healthier-than-peers-research-shows/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d38aea66c7cb that is the only source cited saying that they "fare better off". The other ones say they are "just as well", which is what should be in the article. The one source cited is of a small sample study of a few hundred people in Australia. That is not statistically significant, or applicable to the entire rest of the world. BobRoberts14 (talk) 22:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- You use the false argument that children to LGBT parents are more likely to be bullied at school as a justification for your edit. Therefore, of course this argument must be sourced if you want it to be taken into account. The sentence that you have modified in the article was: These claims are refuted by science which shows that homosexuality is a natural and normal variation in human sexuality, that sexual orientation is not a choice, and that the children of same-sex couples fare just as well or even better than the children of opposite-sex couples. Unlike what you are trying to suggest, the paragraph does not try to make any research "true". It just reflects the science's stance on this topic. It is up for the reader to decide which research to rely on. But we must reflect the science's stance as is: some claim that children to same-sex couples fare just as well, some claim they fare even better. But instead, just because you do not agree with the science's stance, you decided to distort it to make it conform to your own view on same-sex parents. Guycn2 · ☎ 22:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- For starters, it is well known that children are more likely to be bullied if there is something that is disliked by many people about their parents. Second, what you are calling "science" is a single study that does not reflect what the majority have determined. BobRoberts14 (talk) 23:02, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- You use the false argument that children to LGBT parents are more likely to be bullied at school as a justification for your edit. Therefore, of course this argument must be sourced if you want it to be taken into account. The sentence that you have modified in the article was: These claims are refuted by science which shows that homosexuality is a natural and normal variation in human sexuality, that sexual orientation is not a choice, and that the children of same-sex couples fare just as well or even better than the children of opposite-sex couples. Unlike what you are trying to suggest, the paragraph does not try to make any research "true". It just reflects the science's stance on this topic. It is up for the reader to decide which research to rely on. But we must reflect the science's stance as is: some claim that children to same-sex couples fare just as well, some claim they fare even better. But instead, just because you do not agree with the science's stance, you decided to distort it to make it conform to your own view on same-sex parents. Guycn2 · ☎ 22:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Some findings are not controlled for income, social class, education, etc., so such findings are not representative for the whole LGBT population, compared to the rest of the population (apples and oranges). Otherwise, I did not claim that the finding would be false, I just claimed that it is apparently an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim and therefore needs rock-solid evidence. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- As he said, making such an unlikely claim requires far more evidence than a few sources. It makes it seem like children should want to have LGBTQ parents because they are more likely to have a better future, which it contentious to say the least. You can cite all the sources you want, but you have to prove that the majority of research supports your claim. BobRoberts14 (talk) 23:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- There is the WP:RS/AC proviso. But that was his/her argument: LGBT parents were cherrypicked, the rest weren't. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
MrX This is currently being discussed, don't revert it back to Guycn2's edit yet until it is resolved. BobRoberts14 (talk) 00:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
I know children being raised by a same-sex married couple at my church. They were married in a church and they are raising the kids great and are growing up with values. I had the honor to be at the service where one of the sons *chose* to be baptized and told the church he wanted to be baptized because he loves Jesus. Children being raised by same-sex couples are being raised with values just like other children. Marriage only strengthens relationships and children of same-sex couples do better when their parents are able to get married. In terms of the text written under discussion, it is deeply and extremely well-sourced. It is from scholarly sources that are trustworthy. Beyond anecdote and study, furthermore, it is simply common sense. Some parents are amazing parents and some may need to be better parents. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It makes perfect sense to keep the "as well as or better" text. If someone told you that you were incapable of being a parent, wouldn't you want to know that you can raise a child as well as or better? I know when I learned this it helped me continue to aspire to my deep commitment to family values as an LGBTQ person. -TenorTwelve (talk) 03:04, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- You don't make much sense. You are saying that same-sex couples' children are better off, but in the same paragraph said that "Children being raised by same-sex couples are being raised with values just like other children," the key words being just like other children. You also said that "This has nothing to do with sexual orientation." Have you been paying literally any attention to this at all? This is only about sexual orientation. Your statements aren't backed up by sources, you just say " it is deeply and extremely well-sourced. It is from scholarly sources that are trustworthy. Beyond anecdote and study, furthermore, it is simply common sense," but then provide no evidence to back up your claim. Again, the whole reason for this argument is that the claim "same-sex couples' children fare better than opposite-sex ones", which is not well enough sourced and does not make any logical sense. Your personal opinions on the matter are irrelevant, all that matters is actually sourced information. There are far more sources stating that same-sex couples have children who do not "fare better" than opposite-sex children than there are sources stating that they do "fare better". I can cite numerous ones, and they outnumber the ones that support your argument.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/23/children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-do-as-well-as-their-peers-study-shows, https://www.mother.ly/news/lesbian-parents-impact-kids-mental-health, https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/yet-another-study-finds-children-samesex-parents-fare-just-well-others/, and many others, all say that same-sex couples' children do "just as well", not "better". Most of the articles that show up prove you wrong. Only a select number, which are in the minority, say that same-sex couples' children "fare better". Bob Roberts 03:53, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Removal of long standing content
I object to the repeated removal of "These claims are refuted by science, which shows that homosexuality is natural and normal,..."
The claims being refuted are:
- homosexuality is unnatural and abnormal
- the recognition of same-sex unions will promote homosexuality in society
Both of these claims are pseudoscientific nonsense promoted by the religious far-right. The removed material must be restored until there is consensus to remove it.- MrX 🖋 00:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The claims just don't make sense at all, I agree. I was saying that the "homosexuality is normal" part doesn't make much sense, since only 5% of the US is homosexual. I agree that the other claims are false though. BobRoberts14 (talk) 00:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- @MrX I think your newest edit works and makes sense. I just think we should discuse the word "normal" that is used to describe LGBTQ+ people. I don't think that is a word that can be used to describe them, since they only comprise 5% of the population, and many people (I think they are just as good as other people) think they are weird (again, I think they are fine). BobRoberts14 (talk) 00:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- "Homosexuality is normal" means it is clinically normal, i.e. according to psychologists and MDs. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ahh okay, thanks for telling me. I just wanted to know further because it confused me and wasn't sourced. BobRoberts14 (talk) 01:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- This is why we use sources, and not what editors believe or conclude. 5% of people have hazel eyes. No reasonable person would dispute that having hazel eyes is normal. At one time in this article's history there were more than 20 sources supporting the scientific consensus that homosexuality is a normal variation.- MrX 🖋 01:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean I would say that people who have hazel eyes are not normal, because that is much less than average... Bob Roberts 01:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- Abnormal doesn't mean bad, but to me it means differentiating from most people (below the 20th percentile or something). Bob Roberts 01:10, 14 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
- "Homosexuality is normal" means it is clinically normal, i.e. according to psychologists and MDs. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
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