Talk:Skanderbeg - Misplaced Pages

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian? A1: Yes, Skanderbeg was an Albanian feudal lord from the Albanian House of Kastrioti. Q2: What language did they speak in Albania during Skanderbeg's lifetime? A2: Skanderbeg's native language was Albanian. In the Balkans Italian, Greek, Vlach, Latin, South Slavic languages and Ottoman Turkish were also common during Skanderbeg's lifetime. Q3: What was the background of Skanderbeg's mother? A3: Primary sources refer to her as being from Polog, most likely being the Polog valley in modern day North Macedonia. It has also been argued that another Polog, closer to the town of Bitola in the plain of Pelagonia may be the location of the Polog mentioned by Barleti. There is debate among different scholars of whether Skanderbeg's mother was related to the Muzaka family, most likely of Albanian descent, or of the Serb Branković dynasty, or of an unknown Bulgarian family. There is, however, no mention of Voisava on the Branković dynasty family tree. Q4: Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic? A4: Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was a Roman Catholic in the period from 1444 to his death in 1468. In the period prior to 1444, he had converted to Islam. The exact date of his conversion is unclear but it must have been between 1426 and 1431. His father, Gjon Kastrioti changed his religion several times (Roman Catholic/Christian Orthodox/Muslim). Q5: What was Skanderbeg's real name and who were his parents? A5: His real name was Gjergj Kastrioti, Gjergj is the Albanian version of the name George. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother's name was Voisava Kastrioti

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Skanderbeg origin, sources

Ever since a group of pro-Albanian editors took control over the article against Misplaced Pages:OWN, other editors have been strugling to edit and expand the article. Instances of such behavior can be observed in their inflexibility to accept changes backed by Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. The problem is even greater giving the fact that the vesion they wrote and they prevent editors from changing or expanding, is unsouced. For someone fom outside things may not be clear, but, we are facing clear Albanian-POV pushing in which they tend to marginalise and gather all together all different theories of Skanderbeg origin, that way discrediting them all.

This revert is absolutelly unecceptable. Not only restores an unsourced claim (not even one source claims Skanderbeg was "possibly of Serbian or Bulgaian origin") but also prevents expanding each claim by itself.

Another, quite contentious aspect, is their addition of "possibly",. which is wrong, because most sources, as least for the Serbian origin claim, don´t use the expression of "possibility" neither any other expressing doubts. Lets see some of the sources backing up Skanderbegs Serbian origin theory:

A History of Montenegro by Francis Stevenson, citarion: "Skanderber himself, as has been seen - Skanderbergthe national hero of the Albanians, was of Serb origin."

Theodore Spandounes: On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors, Pages 133-261 by Theodōros Spandouginos, page 47. Citation: "For some years it has been ruled by by Skanderbeg, a most valiant man of Serbian oigin."]

Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, citation: "This force was led by John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin, and whose son, Skenderbeg, was venerated by Albanians at the time were Christian and their solidarity with the Serbs was not difficult to comprehend."

What can Germans and French learn from Serbs and Albanians? by balcanicaucaso.org, citation: " Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero, is the perfect example of this – his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin; his older brother was Sinisha, which is a Serbian or, to be more accurate, Slavic name."

HONOR and HEROISM by Marko Miljanov Popovich, page 59, citation: "George Kastriota (Skanderbeg), (1404–1468) an Orthodox Christian ruler of Albania. His father, John Kastriota (of the Serbian origin), led the..."

Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge by Walter Yust, 1952, page 762, citation: "(Skanderbeg) out wearing a royal crown, was of Serbian origin. The founder of the family of Castriota was a certan Branilo, who was governor of Kanina in 1368, and whose gandson, Giovani lord of Mat and Vumenestia, married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate."

The encyclopedia Americana - Volume 8; Volume 24 - Page 878, pblished 1998, citation: "...son of John Kastrioti (Castriota), a high official of Serbian origin, and his given name was George."

These are just some of the first results I am finding and all in English. Would you now be kind and revert yourself so we can properly expand Serbian origin part? FkpCascais (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

ok FkpCascais once again Spandouginos is wp:primary and so is Miljanov. Both sources are old with the first being some 500 years old and the second over a hundred years old. In those cases WP:AGEMATTERS. Britannica and Americana are wp:tertiary etc and most articles contain content based on wp:secondary. Please this is not some thing about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.Resnjari (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

How is that Spandouginos is primary source? I don´t see at his book any citation quotes which would means he is refering to some old text of someone elses words. About the rest, in one way or another, they do say the same, which is Skanderbeg has Serbian origin. We are not strict to use just nowadays sources. Anyway, I will keep on bringing sources. FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Going by your comment I'm getting this vibe that you haven't had a good look at some of the sources your using. With Spandouginos, p.iii.. Its clearly stated its a translation of a text from some 500 years ago etc. Please desist for the time being as your going into wp:BATTLEGROUND territory.Resnjari (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

More sources:

Croatia: Ludwig von Gaj and the Croats are Herrenvolk Goths Syndrome by Ivo Vukcevich, page 246, citation: "According to some sources, great-grandfather, Branilo Castriot, was a Serb (dórigine Serbe) in the company of Serbs. .... It is a matter of record that thee Castrior estates in Albania can be traced to Skanderbeg´s gandfather , Pal, who receved his estates from Serbian Emperir Dushan in 1345."

Mu friend, I am adding sourced material which is missing. I will bring much more. FkpCascais (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais your just confriming more and more that your not having a proper look the sources your using. Your latest addition based on Ivo Vukcevich is a self published source (WP:RSSELF) done through Xlibris. Misplaced Pages does not allow for use of publications that are self published.Resnjari (talk) 22:54, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Le Kossovo de l'absolu by Komnen Bećirović, pages 8, 9, citation:"... sur le origine serbe de George Castriote, dit Skanderbeg,..." FkpCascais (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm very concerned on the way your going about things here. Editors have expressed multiple concerns with the sources used, and you have repeatedly put them back and then added more problematic sources into the article. Please desist. The editing is going into WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and wp:BATTLEGROUND territory. I have engaged you in good faith and its very disappointing seeing all this.Resnjari (talk) 23:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I am also very concern that what you call "editors" is just the 3 of you Albanians who happened team-tag and OWN articles. It is time to end this. I will keep on bringing sources cause WP:RS and WP:Verifiability is all that matters. FkpCascais (talk) 23:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais again why are you resorting to personal attacks. Whatever a person's ethnic heritage or origin maybe that should not be part of any discussion here. Please stop with this. Show good faith.Resnjari (talk) 23:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

At begining I had all good-faith, also because I have great Albanian friends in personal life. But you make me loose it when I see that here at Misplaced Pages tha tactic that you use is to make endless objections at talk-page in order to leave some info you dislike out of the article. You tried to disrgard Skandebeg Serbian origin theories by minimasing them and equalising them to some considerably lower in impotance origin theories such as the Bulgarian one. You should have shown good-faith when I asked you to respect WP rules and separate the two claims cause no source claimed both simultaneously, while all claim either one or another, You did it to prevent expanding the Serbian origin claim, as you still do. And, as you can see, there are plenty of sources for it. FkpCascais (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais how many Albanian friends you have is not something that any editor asked you and not a concern here. What is a concern is that you have rammed your edits into the article showing clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior when multiple concerns were raised by other editors about the sources you have used and the way you have gone about things. Its disappointing.Resnjari (talk) 23:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I also don´t care if you are disapointed or what, all I want is for us to make the best possible article based on reliable sources. FkpCascais (talk) 23:55, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, good. So show good faith and revert your additions that you have no consensus for and also use sources are problematic.Resnjari (talk) 00:02, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

No, this state of article is certainly better than the previous, because the previous edit was unsourced and indicated total undue-weight regading the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. I asked Deb for a sugestion, lets, wait. FkpCascais (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, your just showing more wp:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Again disappointing.Resnjari (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (history): to weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:

Recent scholarly books and chapters on the historiography of the topic
"Review Articles", or historiographical essays that explicitly discuss recent scholarship in an area.
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Per above mentioned classification: Robert Elsie, who is an expert of Albanian issues claims in his Historical Dictionary of Albania, Volume 75 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Second edition, published by Academic publisher Scarecrow Press, recently (2010), ISBN 081087380X, p. 398 in the article on Skanderbeg himself:

Albanian prince and national hero. The real name of Scanderbeg (Alb. Skenderbej, def. Skenderbeu) was George Castriotta (Alb. Gjergj Kastrioti). George Castriotta came from a family of landowners from the Dibra region in northeastern Albania, who were no doubt of mixed Albanian-Slavic ancestry.

That is NPOV and meets the criteria above. Jingiby (talk) 07:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that the ammount of sources claiming Serbian (not generalistically "Slavic") ancestry is so significant that clearly deserves a mention. FkpCascais (talk) 09:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, I have checked the first 3 of them. The first one is called "A History of Montenegro" by Francis Stevenson. It was published for the first time more then 100 years ago and is out of date, i.e. not reliable source. The second book is written by Theodore Spandounes: "On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors". Spandounes died in 1538, i.e. this book is totally out of date. The third one is the only reliable source: "Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies" by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, and claims Kastrioti was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin, that is as a whole in accordance with the article. Jingiby (talk) 10:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. What about the others? FkpCascais (talk) 10:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, FkpCascais. The next 3 sources are: 1. What can Germans and French learn from Serbs and Albanians? by Aleksandar Pavlović, published on the research on-line magazine called OBC Transeuropa, i.e. it is reliable at some degree. It claims: Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero... his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin; Simply the mixed origins story is confirmed. 2. HONOR and HEROISM by Marko Miljanov, who died on February 2, 1901. He is a Serbian author and the book was simply translated in English. I would say, it is somehow biased source, and out of date, i.e. not reliable. 3. Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge by Walter Yust, 1952 edition. This source confirms the thesis on the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. Nevertheless it is ca. 70 years old, that means this publication does not meet the criteria on recent scholarship mentioned above. Jingiby (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Can I suggest that a RfC is opened here. It pretty much looks there will be a snow closure, so this might be the simplest way to resolve this.Bilseric (talk) 11:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Its time to revert to the stable version of the article before all the events of the past 24 hours. After that a discussion can resume about these things hopefully this time in good faith by all editors. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:28, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

It's obvious that an essential part from the Myth of Skanderbeg belongs to this article. I wonder why there is nothing in here yet. FkpCascais Jingiby Resnjari Antidiskriminator suggestions?Alexikoua (talk) 21:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Do not ping FkpCascais as he is topic-banned. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua, unless this discussion is about a merger of the Myth of Skanderbeg article into this one (and deletion of that article), we ain't creating forks all over the place. Also pinging Calthinus and Ktrimi991 as they have been involved in the editing of this article. And do take @Ktrimi991's advice, don't ping topic banned editors, as they got themselves into enough trouble as it is with this page. They have had enough excitement for the day.Resnjari (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I see no consensus on the view of a "pure Albanian" in the LEAD. After all, how can a person be just "Albanian" when his mother is not, at a time that "Albanian" was not an official nationality, and when he never claimed that he is of certain ethnicity? I think the LEAD should reflect modern views on the man.--Skylax30 (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Skylax30, Albanian was an official nationality in the same sense Serbian, Bulgarian or Hungarian was, there is enough documentation available that proves the existence of an Albanian "race", distinctive from that of its neighbors. The point you're trying to make is that the page should list him as half-serbian only because his mother might, and emphasis on might, have been of Serbian origin. Now, matter of fact is that in medieval time ancestry was determined solely by the paternal lineage, that is by the lineage of the father which we know is up for debate as well since Greeks and Serbs oh so love appropriation, but we will take as Albanian. The existence of an Albanian national consciousness, as well as Skanderbeg's self-identification as Albanian in the letter he sent to Giovanni Orsini, the Prince of Taranto, make it abundantly clear than his "serbian" side had little to no basis. These absolutely clear chauvinistic approaches to the question at hand, and the appropriation of history by the Serbs (which is as pathetic as listing Skanderbeg as a "pure Serb" in the Serbian wikipedia and holding it as a featured article) has no place on wikipedia and the renegades that sullen this site should all be blocked permanently. ArdenDem (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Mediation

There are so many souces backing his Serbian origin than your removal of sourced content about it is disruptive. I will open a mediation for this. FkpCascais (talk) 09:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Any reason the Greek name is excluded?

First, I don't see why the name in other languages should be given first in Albanian. Did he ever write his name in Albanian? This form of name appeared about 2 centuries after his death.

On the other hand, the Greek form of his surname appeared in some important Greek chronicles, mainly that of Laonikos Chalkokondyles, his contemporary. Some other late byzantine chronicographs simply ignored him, because he was not as an important figure as some claimed later. We had to wait till late 20th c. the monumental work of Oliver Schimt to learn that Skanderbeg was only partly accepted in his country, never won a major battle, and never ruled a city. Anyway, for the learned readers of WP, the Greek name is important. Obviously the latin Georgius Castrioti is a transliteration from the Greek. I added for the moment the original text of Chalkokondyles, and soon I will add some more modern sources citing the greek text of Chalkokondyles. Unfortunatelly, it is not easy to find a modern non-greek publication that cites the name in greek letters. This is one of the cases where the "primary sources" have to be used. We don't use any info from Chalkokondyles, other than the wording of the name, and this is not a problem. Regretably, some friends here insist on a pro-albanian POV and anti-slavic and anti-greek polemic.--Skylax30 (talk) 10:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Greeks are funny people ;D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.104.129.22 (talk) 15:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the above. Otherwise some could think that anti-hellenism is only in my imagination.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

A: "They're against me!" B: "Don't be silly!" A: "You see! He called me silly!" --Andreas Philopater (talk) 00:07, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Any opinion on the topic? The name in Greek should be there or not, and why?--Skylax30 (talk) 12:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The Albanian name is in there because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated with Albania and Albanians. Unless you have not read the whole article, then this thread is the result.Resnjari (talk) 18:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

This or similar questions are frequently asked by multiple editors for many years and deserve a proper reply based on consensus grounded in wikipedia rules. I have never seen such reply. I think nobody has ever presented a single convincing argument or criteria to add Sk's name on Albanian language into lede but not on Serbian or Greek language. Nine years ago there was a discussion about inclusion of Sk's name on Serbian or Greek language in the lede (link to the secion). At that time a small group of editors made up seven unconvincing specific and mutually exclusive and contradicting POV rules why Sk's name on Albanian language should be added to the lede and why Serbian and Greek language names should not. It might be a good idea to prepare some kind of Matrix with different langague names and arguments to determine the correct answer what language name should be present in the lede.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:41, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

This goes to same for you too. The Albanian name is in there because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated with Albania and Albanians. Unless you have not read the whole article, then this thread is the result.Resnjari (talk) 18:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Only after Myth of Skanderbeg was created about 100 years ago. On the other hand, George was associated with Slavs and their resistance to Ottomans centuries before 19th century Albanian nationalists decided to create Albanian nationalistic myth of poor Ђурађ. Still, thank you for unconvincing, specific, mutually exclusive and contradicting POV rules number eight (associated with Albania and Albanians) and nine (read the whole article). I will create a matrix and present it here as soon as I have some more time.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

You forget that Skanderbeg associated with the Arberesh community. They where Albanians (which included most of the Albanian aristocracy and other elite and a sizable chuck of the population) who fled while he was alive and after he died to southern Italy to escape the Ottoman wars and later conquest. The association has been with Albanians for a very long time. If you want to get specific about which Albanian communities kept his memory alive or was relevant to them, that's a different matter. Of course in the Balkans it was a different reality where his memory was forgotten and later reimported via the Arberesh during the Albanian national Awakening as a national symbol to generate unity etc. Among the Slavs he was a anti-Ottoman symbol for a time, they didn't bother to stick with him interestingly though like all the other types like in the nationalistic Kosovo Myth etc.Resnjari (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Slavs indeed associated themselves with Skanderbeg without making a nationalistic myth of him. This article is about historical Skanderbeg. Not about Myth of Skanderbeg. If this article would be about Myth of Skanderbeg, the addition of his name on Albanian or Arbereshe language would be justified because Slavs or Greeks never made a myth of him. Resnjari, can you please present written source for earliest mention of Skanderbeg on Arbereshe language?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

They never made a myth out of him? They used Skanderbeg as an anti-Ottoman symbol for their own purposes of "liberation from the Ottoman yoke" polemic. Anyway a few clarifications on Arberesh. The term Arbersh is a self appellation the old Albanian community uses in Southern Italy. Their Albanian dialect (not language) is called Arberisht. Both the words Arberesh and Arbersht are old words that Albanian speakers used for themselves and the language prior to the 18th century and has survived outside the Balkans until now in Southern Italy. Skanderbeg had survived as in oral memory among the Arberesh and at the 19th century it was from such sources and so on that Balkan Albanians borrowed him for their purposes (Blumi, p.43. ). Skendi also did a paper on this titled Skenderbeg and Albanian Consciousness, 1968, pp. 83-84. deals with the Arberesh and their traditions about the man. The rest of the paper looks at how those traditions were taken up by Balkan Albanians of the National Awakening when transnational links between both communties transpired in the 1880s etc.Resnjari (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Resnjari, are you able to present written source for earliest mention of Skanderbeg on Arbëresh language or you want to say that in case of Skanderbeg wikipedia should make exemption and use oral instead of written sources?
The article about Arbëresh language uses Gjergji (link to the section). Do you want to say that correct Arbëresh language version of his name should be Gjergji instead of Gjergj version (used by people who only borrowed Skanderbeg and used him for their purposes)? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

About Gjergj and Gjergji both forms work, as per Albanian phonetic rules depending on the context. If you spoke Albanian that should not be some gotcha moment. About the Arberesh, Skanderbeg's memory survived via oral means. This has been documented. I'll quote Skendi as i guess you might not have access to the source. pp.83-84: The memory of the Albanian national hero was maintained vividly among the Albanians of Italy, those who emigrated to Calabria and Sicily, following his death. Among them, "during the wedding dinner", wrote A. Smilari toward the end of the last century, "guns are fired on every side, and songs are chanted, which recall the dinners of Skenderbeg". And the afternoon of Easter day, "The men and women dance separately, singing poems which bring to memory Skenderbeg and the fall of Albania under Turkish rule." Living compactly in Christian territory, though in separate communities, the Italo-Albanians have preserved the songs about Skenderbeg and his exploits which their ancestors had brought from the mother country. Today one may even speak of the existence of a Skenderbeg cycle among them, if one takes into account also the songs on other Albanian heroes who surrounded him. Different, however, was the situation in Albania proper.....Resnjari (talk) 23:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The Greek chronicographers Laonikos Chalkokondyles, George Sphrantzes and Michael Critobulus are the first who mentioned Castriotis in their chronicles. Barletti in latin came almost a century later. Also, the Greeks produced an extended bibliography in Greek. Therefore, the name in Greek is of encyclopaedic interest. Don't worry. You don't "lose" him if the name is in Greek.--Skylax30 (talk) 10:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Skylax30: Can you cite a WP policy stating that if there is literature concerning a person in a certain language, we should add his name in the WP article in that language? I am asking because I 'd like to add Karl Marx's name in Chinese. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:14, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I suppose there will be no objection in adding a list with a famous man's name like Marx in Chinese, Korean and any other language. I don't know any WP rule that excludes this. After all, Marx and anarchists did not believe in nations, I think. But as an anarchist, you should know better. Alternatively, I can add a sub-paragraph with Greek bibliography on Castrioti, based on Titos Yohalas' book and others. Cheers. --Skylax30 (talk) 11:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Skylax30, the article is not about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.Resnjari (talk) 12:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry Resnjari, but I don't have time to "study" whatever you are suggesting. Stete here clearly what you don't like. I transferred to the "Myth of Sk." the paragraph of Rama. You may delete it from here. Where are the "primary sources"? --Skylax30 (talk) 12:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I know that's the problem, you don't study, but POV push. Look either that article gets absorbed into here or its stays separate. We are not creating WP:FORKs all over the place.Resnjari (talk) 12:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Don't bother responding to this nonsense Resnjari. Feeding it keeps the exhibit on display. --Calthinus (talk) 04:57, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

... and why Albanian name is in LEAD?

Any explanation why the Albanian name is coming after the english? Is the english name a transliteration of the Albanian? Point to the appropriate rule please.--Skylax30 (talk) 13:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated most with Albanians, hence the Albanian name is given in lede.Resnjari (talk) 14:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

MOS:BIO has an example: *Cleopatra VII Philopator (Template:Lang-grc-gre; 69 – August 12, 30 BC), known to history simply as Cleopatra, was the last active ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt ... Have a look at Good Article Alexander the Great, it begins with Alexander III of Macedon (Template:Lang-grc-gre; 20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great. Cheers mate. Cinadon36 (talk) 14:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

The example is irrelevant. Cleopatra was called Κλεοπάτρα and Alexander was called Αλέξανδρος by his compatriots, and these are their names in the primary sources. It is true, though, that their names are somewhat different in modern Albanian. Cheers.--Skylax30 (talk) 14:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

More WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS views there. One hopes your editing is not steered by it.Resnjari (talk) 14:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

@Skylax30: I thought ancient greek alphabet consisted only of capital letters. Cinadon36 (talk) 15:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

No. The ancient greek script was the Linear B.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously??? What is your definition of "Ancient Greek"? --T*U (talk) 21:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

We are getting off-topic but I loled.Cinadon36 (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Would it get back on topic if we write Skanderbeg in Linear B? Sorry, couldn't resist! --T*U (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, but first try to find his name written at his time in Albanian.--Skylax30 (talk) 17:03, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Get over it @Skylax. Skanderbeg is an Albanian figure.Resnjari (talk) 17:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Did he know this? --Skylax30 (talk) 23:19, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Cinadon36 (talk) 21:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

The article needs an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere.

The article need an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere (and content based on sources from the 19th century ! -WP:AGEMATTERS) and has a layout of original research. Its time to remove these and or replace it with secondary sources that mention certain aspects of the life of Skanderbeg.Resnjari (talk) 12:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Sources way over their use by date. Content should not be based on these and new scholarship has made either some of these redundant. Scholarship also can not ascertain for their accuracy. The following should go. Demetrio 1539, Miklosich 1858, Moore 1850, Thallóczy 1916, Noli 1947, Ljubić 1868–91, Jorga 1908–1913, Lane–Poole 1888, Gibbon 1901. I also came across this: Jacques 1995! This source is not even RS and should not be used in the body of the article at all.Resnjari (talk) 12:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Sources that are old or unreliable can be included in a section (or article) on the "Historiography on Sk.".--Skylax30 (talk) 12:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

They should not be in the body of the article. All of these are used for information in the article. Content based on these should not be there. If your talking about a further reading section that is different.Resnjari (talk) 12:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I think a few of these are okay, like some of the 1900s sources that are currently only being used for figures or mundane things like that.--Calthinus (talk) 22:20, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I think its best that all of those get removed because it has the potential to open a Pandora's box for certain POV pushing editors (as the events of recent times have shown regarding this page). On sources from long ago the topic of Skanderbeg was written from either position of limited research or more patriotic and other similar elements. I don't mind having those old references replaced for a piece of info in the article with strong RS sources of the past few decades as a new ref source. Makes the article stronger in terms of RS that way. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

It would be better if they could all get replaced, yeah. I've been removing some. Should I just leave extra cn tags on ones that if I remove, could cut useful stuff out of the article? --Calthinus (talk) 23:24, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Do that with the tags, so like this editors will know what to address. Replacing takes a while due to locating RS scholarship and reading sources, especially this topic. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:49, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Marriage

Wait was scanderbeg married in St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës? Or Adrenica monastery on the St Mary's Church, Vau i Dejës it says he was married there on his personal Misplaced Pages page it says he married in adrenica monastaery which one is it then? Gjondeda (talk) 01:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

“major 2nd century Roman road). On April 21, 1451 in this monastery was celebrated the marriage of George Kastrioti with Andronika Arianiti. The archbishop of Kanina, Felix said the mess in the wedding in the presence of all the Albanian princes, members of the League of Lezhë and the ambassadors of the Kingdom of Naples, Republic of Venice, and Republic of Ragusa. This is mentioned first by A. Lorenzoni in 1940” from the Ardenica wiki page Now from the church of vau I dejes “It was the place where the national hero Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbeg married.” here’s some clarification Gjondeda (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

gained the title of sipahi

Nonsence! Sipahi is not a title.))))--Удивленный1 (talk) 13:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

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