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Requesting addition to bottom of section: DNA and genetic studies

The following paragraph:

According to a study published in June 2017 by Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, and Eran Elhaik in Frontiers in Genetics, "in a principle component analysis (PCA) , the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins..." Additionally, in a study published in August of the same year by Marc Haber et al. in The American Journal of Human Genetics, the authors concluded that "The overlap between the Bronze Age and present-day Levantines suggests a degree of genetic continuity in the region."

  1. Das, R; Wexler, P; Pirooznia, M; Elhaik, E (2017). "The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish". Frontiers in genetics. 8: 87. doi:10.3389/fgene.2017.00087. PMID 28680441.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
  2. Haber, M; Doumet-Serhal, C; Scheib, C; Xue, Y; Danecek, P; Mezzavilla, M; Youhanna, S; Martiniano, R; Prado-Martinez, J; Szpak, M; Matisoo-Smith, E; Schutkowski, H; Mikulski, R; Zalloua, P; Kivisild, T; Tyler-Smith, C (3 August 2017). "Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences". American journal of human genetics. 101 (2). doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2017.06.013. PMID 28757201.
Seems fine to me. Prinsgezinde (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Wishful thinking but it's not the case, I had read over a 100 of genetic studies since that one which came out in 2000, all of them point that the "palestinians" (I won't ever let go of the quotation mark as it wasn't their name till 1964 and while the British Mandate of Palestine existed they claimed to be "southern syrians" - ask philip khury) - despite the current tone of the genetics section in this article - do not cluster with the Jews, Samaritans or even with most of the lebanese. this is because of the fact that they're just MUCH later migrants than the ones who did originate in the Bronze Age Levant.-User:Wolfman12405 10:14, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
That's not even true. Also why would you try to refute a proper and concrete genetic study that uses ancient DNA samples as a reference by then comparing it to more vague studies that use DNA samples from modern-day populations? The study based on ancient DNA samples makes no assumptions meanwhile you are automatically assuming with no real basis that modern-day Jews and Samaritans are indigenous to the land going back to the period of the Bronze Age. Also the Lebanese have become mixed with many Armenians so modern-day DNA samples of Lebanese are also not as accurate. Seems like what you are saying is nothing but a desperate politically motivated attempt to forge history and facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.133.88.177 (talk) 15:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

This is honestly provably false info .. you posed the DNA study that ties them to the LEVANT that was denied as good research by the majority of geneticists and other DNA researchers have come out and denied he knew what he was talking about and said he had an anti-Jewish bias. He also published papers saying Jews are really Khazars and Yiddish has ties to Turkish. He is also blasted by those in Linguistics ..... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2013/05/16/israeli-researcher-challenges-jewish-dna-links-to-israel-calls-those-who-disagree-nazi-sympathizers/#2bb5c7b428bc "While Elhaik’s work has provided ideological support for those seeking the destruction of Israel, it’s fallen flat among established scientists, who peer reviewed his work and found it sloppy at best and political at worst.

“He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a leading researcher in Jewish genetics. “If you take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years… there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,” he said. He added that Elhaik’s paper “is sort of a one-off.”

“It’s an unrealistic premise,” said University of Arizona geneticist Michael Hammer, one of the world’s top Y-chromosomal researchers.

Discover’s Razib Khan did a textured critique in his Gene Expression blog, noting the study’s historical fuzziness and its selective use of data to come up with what seems like a pre-cooked conclusion. As Razib writes, it’s hardly surprising that we would find a small but sizable Khazarian contribution to the “Jewish gene pool”. In fact the male line of my own family traces to the Caucuses, suggesting I’m one of the 20 percent or so of Jews whose lineage traces to converted royal Khazarians. But that view is widely acknowledged by Ostrer, Hammer, Feldman, Michael Thomas and every major researcher in this area—as summarized in my book, Abraham’s Children: Race, Identity and the DNA of the Chosen People."

Seriously, it just shows how biased Misplaced Pages is that you lock a section only containing propaganda that has been found fraudulent around the world by known and respected scientists. The multiple research actually found Druze are the longest genetically uncompromised group in the Levant, and that Jews are their closest relations. (and you don't need me to site the source. It's on the[REDACTED] page of https://en.wikipedia.org/Archaeogenetics_of_the_Near_East — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.77.248 (talk) 13:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

These objections to the scientific findings are futile. Going into the individual studies you can find the precise locations where the ancient samples were taken from and these samples are from locations throughout the land of Palestine and Southern Lebanon which is then more broadly described as the Levant. Also these scientific facts are completely independent from your opinions of the researchers or what they claim about the origins of Jews, whether those are accurate or not. What you are attempting here is to discredit the character rather than the objective scientific findings. 219.75.5.54 (talk) 21:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Dubious claim

"Palestinians are an ethnonational group comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab."

Does that include the millions of Jews who are Palestinians (by definition) because their ancestors lived in Roman province Syria Palaestina and/or British Mandate Palestine prior to the State of Israel's independence in 1948? VwM.Mwv (talk) 10:33, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

It means the former (the sentence notes that in past tense "who have lived"), the ancient and medieval population of Jews and Samaritans that underwent linguistic shifts to Aramaic and then Arabic with religious shifts from Judaism to Christianity and later with some to Islam, processes that formed a sizable part of the modern Palestinian population.Resnjari (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Then why include the claim that they "today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab"? Is there any evidence that the majority of the descendants of the individuals who lived in the region when it was officially known as "Palestine" (as imposed by the Roman and later British authorities) are "culturally and linguistically Arab"? Aren't most (or at least a substantial minority) of them culturally and linguistically Jewish? VwM.Mwv (talk) 13:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Because today that's what that population is. The Judaic populations (Jews and Samaritans) that remained in the region after the Bar Kokhba revolt and thereafter underwent transformations (due to revolts and subsequent persecutions under the Byzantines, Caliph Al Hakim the Ottomans etc), as did the wider Levant (especially after the Islamic conquests). Palestinians like other modern day Arabic speaking populations of the Levant have elements of past populations (some more then others -here it gets complicated) that resulted in making who they are today. Obviously past identities of ethno-linguistic and even religious affiliation have not been continuous (due to the many changes), so with the Palestinians its referred to in past tense. In present tense the bit "culturally and linguistically Arab" defines the state that they are in today because Palestinians at least for some decades now overwhelmingly use the self appellation of Palestinian and not Arab for themselves and associations with the Arab world and their identity are mainly cultural and linguistic.Resnjari (talk) 13:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: But why single out the Palestinians who are culturally/linguistically Arab when there are millions of Palestinians who are culturally/linguistically Jewish alive today, according to this article's definition (i.e. geographical ancestry: the region of "Palestine"). VwM.Mwv (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Wait, how are you defining Palestinians here? Are you looking at it from the perspective of geography and a pre-British mandate position when the whole area was called Palestine and its people of all faiths were called Palestinian or the current meaning that applies to an Arabic speaking population of Muslim, Druze and Christian faiths that self identify as Palestinian? Because if its the first, the article is not about that but instead about a distinct self identifying ethnos called Palestians who are of Arabic speakers.Resnjari (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: If this article is supposed to be about the latter, then why include the text "comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans"? Most Jews alive today fit the description above. You can't have it both ways; you can't say this article should be about self-identification, yet still use that description. VwM.Mwv (talk) 19:36, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Because most of the modern Jewish population in modern Israel stems from Jews that had been relocated (often by force) during the Roman era after the destruction of the Herodian temple and until Bar Kokhba revolt to Europe and others that formed the Sephardi diaspora in the wider Middle East and North Africa. The Judaic elements of Jews and Samaritans that remained in considerable numbers underwent various linguistic, religious and identity changes due to various geopolitical factors over many centuries. From them a sizable part of the modern Arab speaking populace who self identify today as Palestinians descend from. The term Palestinians applies to this group. There is nothing wrong in noting what past populations contributed to their make up.Resnjari (talk) 19:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
It can be mentioned that pretty much all of the Jewish population in Israel circa 1800 became Israeli and did not adopt a Palestinian identity, and many did play a pretty significant role in the Zionist movement -- Yaakov Meir being one example. Before the modern period, Palestinian was geographic so yes they were Palestinian Jews (who had mostly moved there in the 15th and 16th centuries from Spain). Within the Zionist movement they were on both the left and the right -- some like Ha-Herut aimed to convince the Arab-speaking Muslims that they could feel at home in a Jewish state ] while on the other hand many were in Lehi and Irgun.--Calthinus (talk) 20:09, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Arabization

This section and related parts of the wider article are drafted very loosely re our use of the term “Arab”. Most of the time we are talking about the Arabic language (which developed locally, even if was codified in the Hijaz, and from which the Levantine dialect remains distinct) and the cultural influence of Islam. Yet occasionally we intersperse ethnic usage where we actually mean Hijazis. It makes for a hotch potch. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Locally? In the Syrian desert or Trans-Jordanian desert perhaps. The language shift to Arabic in urban and somewhat dense rural areas (in Palestine and Syria) was post 7th century. Icewhiz (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Almost all of the earliest Old Arabic inscriptions were found within a few dozen miles of the current borders of Israel / Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
There is an excellent and recent study on Palestinian Arabic by Mila Nieshtadt. Its a chapter called "The lexical component in the Aramaic substrate of Palestinian" in a edited book titled "Semitic Languages in Contact" (2015) and published by Brill. As Palestinian topics are contentious this is a great RS source one devoid of problems. Its good for use to update the article on this topic area regarding Palestinians.Resnjari (talk) 20:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Germany

There are not only 80.000 Palestinians living in Germany. The number of Palestinians in Germany must be more than twice as many. https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/palaestinenser-in-deutschland-da-kommt-etwas-hoch-a-190097-amp.html This is an article is from 2002 and the number of Palestinians were estimated at 200.000. Ok, I think 200.000 in 2002 is a little bit exaggerated, but referring to today it is not an unrealistic number so I would replace 80.000 with 200.000 and link the Spiegel article as the source Jnnc19 (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

In 2010, the number of all Palestinians living in Germany is estimated at ca. 200,000 people. Jnnc19 (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. "Palästinenser vermissen Solidarität - taz.de". www.taz.de.
  2. "Palästinenser in Deutschland: "Da kommt etwas hoch" - SPIEGEL ONLINE". www.spiegel.de.
  3. "Palästinenser in Deutschland - "Jetzt fühle ich Hass" - Politik - Süddeutsche.de". www.sueddeutsche.de.

"Israeli passport" for Muslim Arabs...

Is there an "Israeli passport" for Muslims who wish? ... for example with the note on professed religion so that even individuals of other religions can access it. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.38.65.148 (talk) 03:35, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

This is not the right place for such question. Try websites such as Reddit or Quora.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:55, 26 September 2019 (UTC)


False use of a citation

This section has a serious problem. I tried bringing this up previously, but the discussion got hijacked.

>Inscriptional evidence over a millennium from the peripheral areas of Palestine, such as the Golan and the Negev, show a prevalence of Arab names over Aramaic names from the Achaemenid period,550 -330 BCE onwards.

However the text being cited "Palestine in Late Antiquity" covers the period of period 300-650 **CE** not BCE

This is a (probably) just a minor typographical mistake, but it has a large impact on people's understanding of the timeline.

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