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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kingsif (talk | contribs) at 07:02, 24 October 2019 (→Lead photo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article was nominated for deletion on 23 October 2019. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

A news item involving Essex lorry deaths was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 23 October 2019.

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Migrants or human trafficking?

"Human trafficking is the trade of humans for the purpose of forced labour, sexual slavery, or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others." which is part of organized crime, while migrants fall under People smuggling. The latter is also a crime but done with the victim's consent. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Human trafficking & people smuggling are both forms of organised crime. There are significant differences between the 2 & if/when it becomes clear which was involved in this case, the article should clarify which was involved in this case. Jim Michael (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

This is why I had included the Thurrock (Grays area) MP statement, quoted, saying 'she called it human trafficking', but this was removed as apparently irrelevant. Kingsif (talk) 17:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Driver

He's been id'd & is aged 25, according to CCTV. However, he'd only picked up the truck/container minutes before the bodies were found, so he's probably not involved in what happened... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.3.59 (talk) 17:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and for WP:BLP concerns he's not named in the article. Kingsif (talk) 17:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

He should never have been named by the media, and his name should be rev-deleted from the article. It is highly probable that he knew nothing about it, since they were most likely already dead when he picked up the container. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

It's possible, let's not get into making completely speculative debates on the innocence or not of people involved (for example, we could also say why would a driver come all the way from NI to Essex to pick up a load specifically). Read: you don't have anywhere near enough evidence to declare him "highly probably" innocent and impose that on the article. I think it's perfectly fine to have some information on him included, that which is from RS (note: the BBC put his face on the evening news, so we now know their stance). There's BLP and then there's the view to 'oh no! scrub everything until they're in prison!'. Kingsif (talk) 02:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME is very clear about naming non-notable people who are accused of a crime. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up suing the BBC, Guardian, Sun, Daily Mail etc. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 03:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The article wouldn't name him, but are we not allowed to say he (gasp) drives freezer trucks and lives in Northern Ireland? Kingsif (talk) 03:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

It sounds more like a routine questioning than an "arrest" as such, he hasn't even been charged with anything. According to reports on social media (still waiting for confirmation in RS) he has already been released without charge. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 03:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

...I didn't say anything about an arrest. But, yes, I specifically have not been saying "arrested for murder", just "arrested", whenever I put it in the article. Also remember that we reflect the RS, so if they say he was arrested, we don't WP:OR that into 'well it looks more like he was questioned'. Wait for the sources to correct themselves and be as vague as is not misleading until then. Kingsif (talk) 04:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Mainstream media sources have stated that he was arrested on suspicion of murder. Jim Michael (talk) 06:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Title

Incident is too vague & not the common name in regard to this & the 2000 Dover incident. What would be better titles for these two events? Jim Michael (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

The media seems to be using "lorry deaths" for this one, which is arguably too informal. '2019 Grays lorry deaths'? Until its really known the nature of the crime, a fully accurate title is hard to write. Kingsif (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

"2019 Grays lorry deaths" seems safe to me. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 00:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

What about '2019 Grays human smuggling incident'? Though there is no official word (and likely won't be for some time) on the smuggling vs. trafficking question. Kingsif (talk) 00:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

2019 Grays murders or 2019 Grays deaths, maybe? Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 00:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

With the case being investigated & the driver in custody, we shouldn't have murder in the title. Jim Michael (talk) 03:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

We won't need the year (which no sources use), so maybe "Grays lorry deaths". But without knowing whether anyone died in the lorry or in Grays, maybe "Grays lorry bodies". Does anyone call them that? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:14, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

No sources use that phrase... probably with good reason: if you didn't know what the article was about and just read "Grays lorry bodies", what would you think? Because my mind has gone to aliens. (Whereas they only don't use the year because they can instead say 'today'.) Kingsif (talk) 01:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The current title more strongly suggests aliens to me, by not identifying the vehicle and its interstate objects. But if it's uncommon, it'll never fly. Is this even about an event yet, or a certain grisly truck? Anything out there calling it an investigation, inquiry or case? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:40, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Sources in article mention investigation, do not call the whole ...incident... such. Kingsif (talk) 02:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I was just about to add that the '2019' use definitely establishes Grays as a place to ease understanding, but then thought that the title could easily be expanded to Essex, even though it's just on the border? Kingsif (talk) 01:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Too many commas. The year establishes the year, and that's it. Could still be who in whatever then, or whatever in where, just not in 1978 (or whenever). InedibleHulk (talk) 01:53, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking more 'Essex lorry deaths'? Kingsif (talk) 02:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh. No comma trouble, then. Still suggests the deaths happened in or resulted from an Essex lorry, but better. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:09, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

I just really want someone to misread as "Sex lorry deaths" I also agree with the below statement that the current title has no outstanding problems that need to be resolved until the media picks up a nickname; most likely when the police act quick and uncover whatever nefarious evil is behind the sad situation, a good accurate name will arise. Kingsif (talk) 02:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The Brits have a codename for every grand affair, row or operation, it seems. Time will tell. Vague can work, though so could Grays incident. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:20, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Grays incident could work, though I don't have an overwhelming desire to hit move until something better is thought up. Or something that doesn't sound like a plot summary for Grey's Anatomy (have they done lorry deaths yet? They've done about every other form of transportation-related death, right?). Kingsif (talk) 02:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, wait and see. Tomorrow could reveal a wider picture that makes the discovery point seem like a mere detail. Never watched that show, no rush to give it a chance. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:46, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait... Meredith Grey and all her vehicularly imposed injuries would be horrified! Kingsif (talk) 03:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Considering they use "shooting" and "incident" for the title of almost every USA massacre and this appears to have been merely suffocation/hypothermia of a bunch of migrants, I think that this could easily pass as "2019 Grays logistics snafu".201.178.51.174 (talk) 06:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Can treat the current title as a placeholder for now. Quite likely the incident will acquire its own commonly understood name over the next few weeks. Current title is neutral and of no great concern. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Lead photo

The current photo is misleading. Not only is it a different place, more than a mile from the location in question, its semi-derelict appearance is quite unlike the actual location in Eastern Avenue on a modern commercial estate - the lorry was parked in front of the circular fuel tank here. Davidships (talk) 02:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

In short, it's the only commons image of Grays that's not residential. The image caption doesn't say it's Eastern Avenue, but we can make that clearer if you like. Kingsif (talk) 02:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Any objection to using a similar truck photo? The truck strikes me as the thing people find weird here, not the scenery. Well, the 39 corpses, but a representative truck seems much easier. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:40, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Updated to a more generic image of Grays, but no objection to a generic Scania truck. Kingsif (talk) 02:42, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Agree with IH that a photo illustrating the lorry is much more important. Despite a big gallery of Scania trucks, it is most important to have the right type of trailer (ie not curtain-sided or soft top), nor a maritime container - the nearest are probably this (though only a two axle cab) and this(which shows the separation of cab and trailer better). Davidships (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Put the second image in the article. You can move them around if you want. Kingsif (talk) 05:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the image of the lorry, because it clearly displays a brand name which, unless I'm missing something, is not associated with this incident. This can cause problems for the company in the real world. We have experience of similar problems with aeroplane crash articles. No image is better than a damaging image. -- zzuuzz 06:20, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Good call. If it has to be an ad, at least not for a food product. Maybe truck rental, like David's first pick. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:36, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, they're visibly different trucks (by size of cab as well as decals). We could just, digitally remove the logo. Kingsif (talk) 06:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

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