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Note to editors: The page English (people) was created in British English (en-GB).
Please refer to:


Definitions of ethnic group, nation, and race

Some definitions:

Definitions of ethnic group

Definitions of nation

Definitions of race

Alun 11:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  • The racial paradigm, which became rooted in physical anthropology at its very beginning, was, for decades, treated as a concept needing no verification. It was only in the mid-20th century that the first attempts were made to question the usefulness of the race concept in describing our species variation. Since then, an ever growing number of anthropologists, particularly in the United States, have rejected the concept (nearly seventy percent in 1999). From "Race"—Still an Issue for Physical Anthropology? Results of Polish Studies Seen in the Light of the U.S. Findings; By Katarzyna A. Kaszycka and Jan Strziko, Institute of Anthropology, Adam Mickiewicz University, 61-701 Poznań, Poland: American Anthropologist March 2003, Vol. 105, No. 1, pp. 116-124 Abstract. Alun 13:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Coon actively aided the segregationist cause in violation of his own standards for scientific objectivity. From “In Ways Unacademical”: The Reception of Carleton S. Coon's The Origin of Races, By J.P.Jackson Jr, Department of Communication, Campus Box 270, University of Colorado: Journal of the History of Biology, Volume 34, Number 2, 2001, pp. 247-285(39). Abstract. Alun 17:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The following statement has been refactored per WP:RPA. Please read WP:NPA. SWAdair 10:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from Epf on this, but I looked up some Carleton Coon stuff and the guy was head of the American Anthropological Association as recent as da 60's (and he voluntarily resigned) so I think theres def a bias against him. Besides, there isnt one scientitist on this planet that maintains perfect objectivity in things, especially if it involves them personally, they're human . On the race page it says 16% of biologists, 36% of developmental psychologists and 41% of physical anthropologists from the most recent survey taken in 1985 believe race does NOT exist (meanin most believe it does !). Thats what I am talkin about..— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.117.116 (talk • contribs)
But what it doesn't say is whether this majority think that race exists as a biological phenomenon or a cultural/social one. I mean one can believe that race exists, but also understand that it has no biological basis. Maybe there is some bias against Coon, I don't know and care less, this is not the place for a discussion about him. If you want to discuss Coon in detail then I'd be happy to do it on my talk page. I simply make these points:
  1. Coon's views do not represent a consensus opinion in the field of Anthropology, therefore it is incorrect to make the claim that his theories are widely accepted or to use them as the basis for a wikipedia article.
  2. Coon's academic impartiality has been called into question, this means that he is a less than a reliable source.
  3. Coon's methods are mainly considered obsolete, his results certainly do not correlate with genetic evidence.
  4. Coon was interested in race, this article is about ethnicity, I included definitions of these above so we can see that ethnic identity does indeed include social, cultural, linguistic and religious elements. None of the definitions state that descent is more important than the other elements, and several maintain that descent includes percieved or a subjective view of descent.

None of this is really serving to improve the article. I suggest we stick to proposals regarding the article. Alun 10:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Wobble, both race and descent (ancestry, presumed and/or actual common origins) are part of ethnicity. This is shown in some of the examples in the internet links you provided above, but also on the ethnic group and race article. "Race" and "ethnic group" are related concepts that also differ. This article seems to be really confused as to whether it means English people in the ethnic/cultural/racial sense or English in the national/political sense (it currently is both I guess). I'd suggest you split it into two articles, with one as English people (ethnic group) and the other as people of England (nationality) or simply include that part into demographics of England. This article gives the wrong impression in many areas and there appears to be a bias and un-resolved POV issue in many sections. Eoganan 17:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No one is claiming that a percieved common ancestry is not a part of ethnicity. What I am saying is the same as you, that it is just a part of it, other users have claimed that we should correlate ethnic identity exclusively with descent, this is why the definitions are there. Alun 18:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking about your suggestion regarding spliting the article into two. It might not be a bad idea. What areas do you think display bias and unresolved POVs? I think you are right, the article doesn't really know what it wants to be. I would like to remove all of the migrationist/genetic material. I think we should have a seperate article specifically dealing with various theories regarding migration to the British and Irish Isles before say 1066. We could then include all material relevant to this. I'm currently reading The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer and it's very good, it is well written and is impeccably sourced. This is the sort of information that could be used for a good article about who the various populations of the British and Irish Isles are descended from, he also sites many of the original research papers used here. There's also Barry Cunliffe's Britain BC and Britain AD for a more archaeological point of view. We could include all of the various invasionist theories and all of the cultural diffusionist theories, include the various interpretations of the genetic evidence etc. Much of this same information could then be removed from Anglo-Saxons and Welsh people etc. What do you think? Alun 18:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

"Coon's methods are mainly considered obsolete, his results certainly do not correlate with genetic evidence."

According to some Wobble, possibly, but then again they've never really been closely analyzed or refuted by anyone with any opposing information or similar work on the subject matter. I can understand why the Anon. would imply that there has been a bias against Coon because there is great divergence across disciplines with regards to race. Social scientists such as those in cultural anthropology, especially in the US, have shown to have a systemic bias on the issue mainly because of socio-political sensitivities or ideological viewpoints on race. Whether or not they match with what has been seen so far from studies in population genetics has also not been documented either, so you can not claim otherwise. From the data I've personally read so far and from what I've read of Coon's works on the internet, there is some striking similarities with studies, especially in his physiologically-based 5-race model (Caucasoid, Negroid, Capoid, Australoid, Mongoloid) since according to Cavalli-Sforza these groups have the greatest genetic differences between each other. I also think you should compare Britain (in the top left corner) in these maps (1939) of Coon's with this one based on Y-chromosome analysis (2003-2004). I find it it really interesting in Coon's analysis of skin pigmentation and racial classification (based on other parts of appearance) follow a similar pattern to the Y-chromosome map. Coon found that Ireland had the greatest amount of Upper Paleolithic stock, especially in the west, which coincides with Y-chromosome analysis confirming the same thing. He also noted that Germanic-dervied (combined Anglo-Saxon/Danish) "Nordic" stock was strongest in England, especially in the east, which is again in line with the Y-chromosome study. Analyze the maps in your own manner (Epf in particular should check it), but the similar patterns are very interesting given Coon made his findings based entirely on skeletal material nearly 70 years ago. Eoganan 17:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Coons was a racist segregationist, my link shows that he compromised his academic principles to support segregationism. Coons observations regarding the distributions of human phenotypes may have been detailed and may well be similar to genetic analysis that has been done recently. There is one major difference though. That is that coons was a racist and apparently a white supremacist who claimed seperate speciation events from Homo erectus for all so called human races, with a particularly special descent for Europeans (yeah very objective that one) this multi regional hypothesis is rejected by the vast majority of modern scientists, with a tiny minority of vested interests still clinging on to it. Humans have a very recent common African origin, all impartial genetic analysis claims so.

All of these findings, which are in accord with many other studies based on different types of genetic variation assessed in different samples of humans, support an evolutionary scenario in which anatomically modern humans evolved first in Africa, accumilating genetic diversity. A small subset of the African population then left the continent, probably experienced a population bottleneck and founded anatomically modern human populations in the rest of the world. Of special importance to discussions of race, our species has a recent, common origin.

This is from Nature Genetics a highly prestigious peer reviewed journal with excellent accademic credentials. Certain editors seem to have a vested interest in distorting the current state of scientific debate by introducing discredited and racialist material that is not accepted by the vast majority of modern scientific opinion. Coons may have well done excellent work at pinpointing the areas of greatest diversity, but he was dead wrong with his conclusions, and his discredited ideas about the different origins of human populations should not be peddled as anything other than contrary to the current scientific consensus. Alun 18:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Whatever his viewpoints on segregation, his data collected is unrivalled in the world of anthropology and his findings are quite remarkable when compared with the genetic data of today. Many of his conclusions were correct and are supported by many genetic studies, including that done by Cavalli-Sforza. It seems certain editors like yourself in turn have their own vested interest in destroying current scientific fact and corrutping it to support their own ideology of race-denial. Many of his theories have by no means been widely discredited, only by a certain few with political and ideological snesitivities to the subject of race, especially the American Anthropologists Association. That genetic data on the "recent" common ancestor (if you consdier 100,000 - 80,000 years ago recent) does nothing to discredit much of Coons findings. Even if he was wrong about the multi-origin hypothesis (still held by many academics, despite your assertions to the contrary), his findings on the partial origins to archaic human species in modern European and Asian populations is finding increasing genetic evidence to back it up. Coon's own extensive skeletal material showed evidence of similarities between modern European and Asian skulls and those of Neanderthal and Asian Homo Erectus. You are dismissing his finding too rashly, largely because your own opinions are similar to those of many of the cultural anthropologists (especially in the US) who reject Coon's work without question or any analysis of it whatsoever. This is not only ignorant, its unscientific. All facts and amterial should be considered, especially when this anthropolgical evidence coincides with modern genetic studies and in turn can give us greater understanding on the origin of races. No matter how you try to downplay it, Coon's work will always be very influential because nothing even close to its detail has ever been compiled. He never admitted to being a white supremist and never advocated anything of the likes, although is ideas on segregation were maybe a little far-fetched to say the least (although some of it did have some validation in the sense of the preservation of diverse racial features). 20:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems certain editors like yourself in turn have their own vested interest in destroying current scientific fact and corrutping it to support their own ideology of race-denial.
First, if I wanted to introduce my own political biased POV into wikipedia I would do it anonymously (oh, like you), but I always use my user account, this makes me completely accountable for all of my edits. Anyone can check my edit history at any time, I never edit without logging in. Secondly if I had a vested interest I would have edited the pages concerned, but in fact I have never edited any page to do with human evolution or to do with Coons, anyone can check this if they like. So your accusations are groundless. I am a scientist, I know what the current consensus is in the field of genetics, the out of Africa model is the consensus. There is no such thing as scientific fact. Only someone with absolutely no understanding of correct scientific method could think that such a thing exists. Alun 13:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Many of his theories have by no means been widely discredited,
Ah the old weasel words trick, how many? which ones? care to name them? Alun 13:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • That genetic data on the "recent" common ancestor (if you consdier 100,000 - 80,000 years ago recent) does nothing to discredit much of Coons findings.
Did anyone say that they did? I just said that it discredits the multi-origin theory, that's all. Don't put words into my mouth. Alun 13:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • multi-origin hypothesis (still held by many academics, despite your assertions to the contrary)
I never asserted the contrary. I said the scientific consensus doesn't support it, even a tiny minority may still be many (after all many is a non-specific quantity that depends on context, sometimes one is many). This is what the another Nature article says: A few researchers still support a version of the 'multiregional' hypothesis.....But most now espouse a version of the 'out of Africa' model. Out of Ethiopia Alun 13:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • anthropolgical evidence coincides with modern genetic studies and in turn can give us greater understanding on the origin of races.
I never said his work was bad, I just said that his conclusions are wrong. He obviously thought the physical differences between human populations represented bigger differences that they actually do. This may have been an honest mistake, fair enough. Anyone who disputes the out of Africa model is is the minority now, like it or not it is not me who is distorting science here. Even the Carleton S. Coon article states that he special pleaded for white people Carleton Coon believed Whites followed a separate evolutionary path from other humans. He believed "The earliest Homo sapiens known, as represented by several examples from Europe and Africa, was an ancestral long-headed white man of short stature and moderately great brain size." and "the negro group probably evolved parallel to the white strain" (The Races of Europe, Chapter II). I have never edited this page, but it's clear that he was implying that somehow white people were special and somehow different from other humans. Alun 13:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

Hello,

WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.

I rated the English people article: B-Class, with the following comments (see link to ratings summary page in the Ethnic groups template atop this talk page):

  • Broad range of subtopics; some subtopics received slightly scant coverage.
  • Some sections have excellent cite/reference, others not so good.
  • POV problems; page locked.
  • This article could be class=A without a huge amount of additional work.

You can give this article (and any other article) a rating, as described below.

-->How to assess articles

Revisions of assessment ratings can be made by assigning an appropriate value via the class parameter in the WikiProject Ethnic groups project banner {{Ethnic groups}} that is currently placed at the top of Ethnic groups articles' talk pages. Quality assessment guidelines are at the Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system page. After rating the article, please provide a short summary to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses. To add the summary, please edit this article's ratings summary page. A link to this page can be found in the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the article's talk page.

Please see the Project's article rating and assessment scheme for more information and the details and criteria for each rating value. A brief version can be found at Template talk:Ethnic groups. You can also enquire at the Ethnic groups Project's main discussion board for assistance.

Another way to help out that could be an enjoyable pastime is to visit Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles, find an interesting-looking article to read, and carefully assess it following those guidelines.

Thanks!
--Ling.Nut 04:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Protection

I've downgraded protection to s-protection, so I really hope you guys have calmed down now. Yesterday was your only collective pass and if I see anymore 3RR violations, personal attacks etc., I will start blocking.
If one of you guys has a spare minute, could you please archive this page? I would like it archived so everyone can start with a clean and equal slate and I think getting rid of these rants and personal attacks would be a good start. I'll come back and do it tomorrow if no one wants to do it in the meanwhile. Thanks, --Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

A new proposal

The contributions to and contributions from sections in the infobox were never intended to reflect ethnic groups per se. They were intended to reflect societies/communities that contributed to or had contributions from English people. It was a deliberate tactic to avoid the ethnic tag. Having thought about it a bit, it seems to me that essentially the Contributions to section simply repeats the Regions with significant populations section. So I am revising my position and am now happy to dispense with the Contributions to section. Having said that, I am concerned about the numbers of people given in the Regions with significant populations section of the infobox. These essentially reflect people declaring English ancestry in censuses from the states that are included (rather than English ethnicity). So my compromise would result in the inclusion of the political entities mentioned, but with removal of the numbers stated (as with religions). I think these numbers can be reasonably included in the footnotes, with a statement to the effect that it is just not known whether the people that responded consider themselves ethnically English or whether they consider themselves of some other ethnicity, but that it is assumed that many of these people actually do consider themselves ethnically Engish, which is why they saw fit to include English ancestry in their census returns. Anyone who wants to find out more information need only refer to the footnote anyway. I'd like to get a consensus on this so we can get the page unprotected. It is reasonable that we all make compromises here. None of us is ever 100% correct, and we all have points of view. In the text of an article we can give all points of view, and therefore have a ballanced and neutral article. It is more difficult with an infobox, because information is either included or excluded, we cannot readily apply provisos. So I'd appreciate some cooperation here, especially from Epf and the previous anonymous user, as these people seem to be the ones who most disagree with this section. Alun 21:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

American/Canadian ethnicity

This thorny subject seems to be one which is not relevant to this article. So I suggest we do not attemt to broach it here again. Alun 21:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Comma-splice

This passage is three separate sentences joined together with commas without any subordination; there needs to be some structuring: AnonMoos 02:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"It is now thought that the situation was far more complex, some archaeologists also see only limited evidence of immigration in the record, Francis Pryor writes I also can't see any evidence for bona fide mass migrations after the Neolithic."


R1b percentages are wrong

it says r1b averages 70% in England, most genetic studies have found it to average 65% in england, brian sykes book blood of the isles used 10,000 people from britain and he claims that england averages 64% r1b, scotland 75% and wales 83%.--Globe01 17:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 17:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Stephen Oppenheimer claims R1b is 60-75% in England. It's not uniformly distributed though, so the figure is somewhat missleading. I'm still reading his book The Origins of the British IMHO a far superior book to Sykes's, he has a very comprehensive list of sources and citations. He he says none of the samples taken by Capelli has fewer than 58% Iberian types. Or put another way he claims that there is a 15-42% male intrusion (average 30%) from Northern Europe into England since the last Ice Age (10,000 years ago), this fits with the 70% figure. England is far more heterogeneous in it's genetic composition than Wales and Scotland. Possibly we should reflect this in the article. Or we could also cite Sykes and Oppenheimer and put the 65% and the 70% figures in. Alun 18:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well Alun, in favour of Dr. Sykes I should say that while Oppenheimer worked only on samples obtained by other geneticists, Sykes, apart form using also those samples, used his own samples, in fact more than 10.000 samples collected over a period of several years and thousands of miles all across the British Isles, in the largest sample collection undertaken yet. In any case, although with differences as to the time-frame in which the Iberian influence was largest (both speak of different migration waves from Iberia over thousands of years)both come to the same conclusion: Most English people and most Britons descend from the Iberian Peninsula. Veritas et Severitas 15:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


hmmmm, they seem to be stretching these haplotype figures a bit much if thats what they're saying, So what if r1b averages 80% in the British Isles and 89-95%% amongst Basques, this does not mean all 80% of the r1b in The British Isles came from the Basque Country, it could have come from anywhere in Europe, r1b is about 50% in the Netherlands, im sure a good proportion of r1b in England comes from the Netherlands with peoples such as the Belgae tribe or anglo saxons. Of course England has other sources for r1b as r1b is 70% there and it is likely that a percentage of the r1b in England arrived before the neolithc and before the iron age.

I have only read Sykes's book and it was very simplistic and didnt really go into depth enough to support the hypothesis being made. There was no detailed data of haplotype sublineages to give a more accurate story just nicknames for genetic markers such as the oisin clan for genetic marker r1b.

I will have to read Stephen Oppheimers Origins of the British to see if that contains any more useful and conclusional data. No doubt the Basques and people from the British Isles are genetically similar (especially the Welsh and Irish) on the Y-chromosomes at quite a high resolution haplotype map but there is still margin for error unless haplotype maps of higher resolution are created showing yet more sublineages of genetic markers. I suppose its still acceptable to include these geneticists veiws. Im only worried that conclusions made to soon that seem perhaps far fetched that turn out to be wrong could cause people to loose faith in the science of genetics and dismiss it as false in future which would be a shame as its a pretty powerful tool for fighting racism.--Globe01 17:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

You might have a good point, but I suppose we need to include the relevant POVs anyway. No one seems to be saying this is wrong as far as I'm aware. Oppenheimer has very detailed maps for sub-groups of R1b to the extent that he shows where the various colonisations of the British Isles occured and when. I think we need a seperate article for this information, something relating to prehistoric populating of the British and Irish Isles, I'm not sure this genetic info fits well on the ethnic group pages and we could include all of this info on a single page, maybe spit a bit off from the Immigration to the United Kingdom article. It seems to me that prehistoric migrations to the Islands do not conform to modern social or political boundaries, these prehistoric settlers knew nothing of Welsh people, English people or Scottish people. It could be argued thet English people (ethnic identity) originated at the time of the "Anglo-Saxon" invasion or indeed later during the time of Alfred through to Athelstan, when these people actually cane together as a unified group. So there is an argument that the article should reflect this more than anything else. This is not to say that these data should be completelly ignored, but we could refer to the "prehistoric migrations" article and include a short section here from that article. Much of the data are replicated here and at Welsh people. I don't edit the Scottish people article so I don't know about that. Alun 14:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


Anyway heres an interesting diagram data showing the genetic distances of populations within the UK and their distance from Basques, north Germans and Danes on the Y-chromosome.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MiamiCaptionURL&_method=retrieve&_udi=B6VRT-48PV5SH-12&_image=fig3&_ba=3&_coverDate=05%2F27%2F2003&_alid=339895807&_rdoc=1&_fmt=full&_orig=search&_cdi=6243&_qd=1&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=298af546d052683da43420d605615408

I think this could be suitable for now to go in all the british peoples articles and Irish people. Its up to date and reflects current scientific thinking. I also see nothing wrong in stating that 2 groups are genetically similar at all but to make conclusions that group a is descended from group b etc going purely on genetic similarities is wrong. Other evidence needs to be mentioned to support such hypothesises. --Globe01 17:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I may agree with you, and believe it or not, I am also quite cautious about these things. But we are supposed to add all points of view of authorities in the field, especially if they are among the latest publications. Our points of view are of course interesting for the discussion page, but our points of view are not valid for the body of the article. We must be careful with this. Self-research is not acceptable in Wiki. By the way, Sykes has the detailed data of his research available in internet. Just look in the book and it refers you to it. Anyway, they are analyzing Rb1 finer and finer now and I guess we are in the process of getting more and more detailed information. There are subgroups called R1b1c6, R1b1c7 etc. Veritas et Severitas 20:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, it seems that we have another author that has now written a book arriving at the same conclusions: Deep Ancestry: Inside the Genographic Project, by Spencer Wells

It seems that authors are piling up on the same theory and they all happen to be British or American. Veritas et Severitas 23:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

I have removed this tag which has been in place since the summer. There is no debate going on here over what it means and I suggest its just a hangover from an earlier time. If anyone objects replace it and state your reasons here. Lumos3 11:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that we now have more authors coming to the same conclusion about the genetics of the British Isles, anyway i am in agreement wiht you now, there is nothing wrong in citing evidence from books written by respected geneticists.--Globe01 11:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Wobble's Reverts

About this text:

Nevertheless, a genetic research on European Population Substructure states:


Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group.

English is included in "northern" European population group.

1) He claimed irrelevancy first while relevancy was obvious from this line:

"English is included in "northern" European population group. "

2) Now he's saying "This section is about the origins of the English". The link between origin of people and genetic data should have been quite easy to understand.

3) The text also answers to previous claims about most English are descandents of Iberian People. It's important to note that English today isnt in same population group with modern Iberians. So the text has double relevancy as it answers previous claims in the section. I think all these should have been very easy to understand. Lukas19 14:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Wobble for his reasons and for this additional reason: this text is far too techinical for inclusion here. This would be better placed in an article specifically on European Genetics. So the study concludes "English is in the "norther" European population group...so what? It doesn't tell us anything that isn't already in the article.--WilliamThweatt 14:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I repeat myself: "The text also answers to previous claims about most English being descandents of Iberian People. It's important to note that English today isnt in same population group with modern Iberians." Lukas19 15:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
All western Europeans are the descendants of people from three Ice Age refuges, with an additional Neolithic component. No genetic study about the origins of the English disputes this. Indeed the R1b haplogroup is the most common all over Northern Europe. European men overwhelmingly have R1b, I or R1a haplotypes, which roughly correspond to the Iberian (more accurately Basque), the Balkan and Ukranian Ice age refuges. There was a Neolithic expansion out of the Near East that is more prominent in the south and the east of Europe. Not only does your paper express no opinion whatsoever as to the origins of the English, the quote you put in the article is also irrelevant. This information tells us nothing about the origins of the English. This information simply tells us that it is possible to draw an arbitrary line through the middle of Europe and show that people to the south of this line are more similar to each other than they are to people to the north of this line, and vice versa. This tells us nothing about the origins of the English. Furthermore due to the clinal nature of human geographical genetic variation it would be just as easy to draw a vertical line through the centre of Europe and show that eastern Europeans are similar to each other and western Europeans likewise. The data that are used in this test are not even English, they are from the UK, and therefore include people from England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, all mixed together. This quote

Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group.

has got nothing to do with origins, where does it mention either English people or their origins? It doesnt even say that southern Europeans are more similar to each other than they are to northern Europeans, though this is one of the inferences one can draw from it. Arbitrarily grouping geographically distributed polymorphisms into artificial "populations" and then using a limited sample of genetic material to show that some groups are more similar to each other than they are to other groups doesn't prove anything about relatedness or origins. When we talk about origins we need to use scientific and genetic data that are specifically about the genetic history of a group of people. At best this is just Thulean/Lucas19's opinion, at worst it is original research. Indeed the only reference I can find to any genetic analysis regarding perhistory and origins in the article is this

It is interesting to speculate how the ability to distinguish northern and southern European populations relates to ancient as well as more modern differences in migration and admixture patterns. Archeological and skeletal evidence as well as studies of mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplogroups have provided evidence of upper Paleolithic, Neolithic, and more recent settlement and migrations as contributing to the origin of current European populations . Phylogenetic analyses of Y haplotypic groups are interpreted to support both separate migrations from the Middle East 4,000 to 7,000 y ago as well as a more recent “Greek” expansion into Italy and the Iberian peninsula occurring closer to 2,500 y ago . The earlier migrations would be consistent with waves spreading agricultural techniques from the Middle East and are supported by some mitochondrial DNA studies . However, there is little consensus concerning the association of any of these migrations with agricultural techniques or trading routes , or for that matter with the spread of Indo-European languages . Some studies of specific mitochondrial and Y haplogroups are consistent with the demic diffusion hypothesis suggested by Cavali-Sforza et al. , and the work of Sokal et al. and others have provided evidence of different patterns of repopulation from glacial refuges or have suggested a later influence from North Africa in both Italy and Spain . As recently discussed by Barbujani and Chikhi, the origin(s) of modern European ancestors remains a controversial issue . Other major population events, including the multiple epidemics during the Middle Ages, may also have resulted in genetic bottlenecks contributing to current differences in European population structure.

But this mainly concerns the more recent population events that are not concerned with England. In conclusion, not only does this article no actually mention England at all, but it has nothing to say about the origins of the English. It is incorrect to imply that what applies to two general and very large pooled samples from large geographical areas of "northern and southern Europe" can equally be applied to more specific regional populations like England and the Basque country. Alun 16:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


Alun the majority of people in northern europe are not R1b, sweden is 15% r1b, norway 30% r1b and even denmark combined with germany acording to cavilli's data is 40% r1b. The netherlands and belgium are above 50% r1b though. Having said that spain is 69% r1b (southern europe) portugal is of a similar percentage and france is 55% r1b. So it appears that r1b is of a west european distribuition peaking in the basque country of northern spain and southern france (95%) and northwestern ireland (98.5%). England is 70% r1b. The whole Iberian connection is acceptable as long as the emphasis is made on ancient iberians, basques and perhaps an article about there being a slim amount of neolithic input into england? Someone has also vandalized the english people descent section, someone revert the article please.--Globe01 17:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You are correct R1b is an Atlantic group not a northern one, this was just a mistake, the paper Thulean/Lucas was using was about Northern Europeans and I suppose I was thinking about that. Anyway this article is not about Swedish people, Norwegian people, Danish people, Belgium people or people from the Netherlands. But it's worth looking at this world haplogroups map, R1b is vey dominant, even in Germany, it may not be in a majority, but it's still the single biggest group as far as I can see, and British men are very different to Scandinavians. English people, and British people are descended from paleolithic people from an Ice Age refuge in the Basque country. Are you disputing this? This is what Thulean/Lucas is disputing. His data are not relevant to this article, they make no mention of English people, they refer to Norther European people and Southern European people, they make little reference to origins, and when they do it is primarily to the neolithic. Thulean/Lucas's edit does not belong here. I suspect that he wants to introduce some concept regarding Nordic theory here, as it seems to be one of his favourite articles, and these data could be used to support such a theory. The R1b data clearly show that English people are mainly of Iberian origin, I know of no study that disputes this. There is also some Balkan refuge herritage in England that may be absent in other regions of the British and Irish Isles, according to Stephen Oppenheimer. There is a Neolithic component to the British population that is smaller than it is in mainland Europe, but still exists. The Y chromosome haplogroup maps also clearly show that there are east-west genetic clines in Europe as well as north south clines, andl also show the artificial nature of clustering large geographic areas into "populations", the genes are clinally distributed, not distributed in discrete populations as the paper cited by Thulean/Lukas would have it. Indeed one can take any geographical region (Wales or England or the British and Irish Isles or Northern Europe or Western Europe) and "prove" that the population is genetically "different" to other regions. It is not a matter of dispute that in general people are geneticaly more similar to those in close geographical proximity to them than to those at a distant geographical proximity. What is in dispute is whether these "populations" (or "races" if you will) are real or artificial biological constructs. I think the other point to make is that England itself displays much more genetic heterogeneity than other regions of the British and Irish Isles, possibly due to its greter area, but there are visible genetic clines even in England. It may be somewhat artificial to give only an absolute figure for the R1b haplotype frequency for England as a whole. It might be better to state that it is heterogeneously distributed in England and give the highest and lowest proportions and state the locations where these proportions occur, and then also give an absolute figure as well. Something like this for R1b, Cornwall 80%, York 57%, Norfolk 60% We may need a cite for the whole of England, I think you have been concerned about this figure in the past? They don't give one in the above map. I'll see if Oppenheimer gives a figure. Unfortunately Sykes for some strange reason doesn't use standard terminology in his book. Alun 18:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
That was my point when I edited the article. To highlight that Iberian connection is ancient. Lukas19 17:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

English are not a Germanic people

This article is included in the category Germanic peoples although very few English would describe themselves as Germanic. (No source is given for the claim). I nominated the category for deletion - see its entry here - because it includes modern groups under a historical term (Roman period to mediaeval). The category is being used for a political agenda, to promote the idea that ethnic groups and nations in north-west Europe are "Germanic". That claim is typically associated with neo-nazi groups, and that seems to be the case in England too.Paul111 11:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well if the category is for people who speak germanic languages, then I don't see the problem, but we should also include Scottish people, Irish people and Welsh people in that case. I suppose it depends what the category is for, if it's a lingustic category then no problem. If it's an ethnic or racial category then it is a problem, I agree. Alun 12:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetics: accuracy disputed

The section opens with an assertion about the genetics of "English men" without any source, and continues in that vein. None of the studies which are quoted seem to refer to genetic material of the "English people", but instead to regional, local or national populations. The section contains no reliable source for any genetic information about the "English people", and could be deleted as unverifiable. However a better solution would be to move it to a separate article on the population genetics of Britain (or Britain and Ireland) - not just England, since the migration issues are related. This problem - unsourced claims based on personal interpretations of non-applicable genetic studies - is a problem at several ethnic/national articles.Paul111 10:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Read again because I definately see sources.Rex 16:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • without any source, and continues in that vein. None of the studies which are quoted
Um, so you claim no sources, then say that some studies are quoted. Aren't you contradicting yourself? Alun 06:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • no reliable source for any genetic material of the "English people", but instead to regional, local or national populations
The studies use English people living in England. How would you define "English people"? Aren't English people a "nation"? I think they are a nation, so using regional populations in England is in fact using English people. I don't really understand what your point is. You seem to be saying that the "English people" are not the "English nation", which is clearly wrong. You also seem to be saying that local populations of people living in England do not represent "English people", which is also clearly wrong. Just how do you define an English person exactly? These studies are peer reviewed, none of the reviewers seem to have had any problem with these assumptions. If you can find academic peer reviewed journals that dispute these findings then they should be included in the article as well as per the neutality policy. As far as I can see tis just seems to be your opinion that these papers do not represent English people and you have provided no verifiable reliable source that disputes these papers. I cannot understand your claim that there are no citations, see my comment above, and that of Rex Germanus. Alun 06:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

From the quoted material, the research was not confined to the "English ethnic group" or the "English nation" or the "English people". If the 'population of England" is the same thing as the "English nation", then genetic studies about one are valid for the other. But that is not the case, and would be inconsistent with the rest of the article, which claims that most of the "English people" live outside England. If a study has specifically concentrated on the "English" then it is a valid source for this article. Local populations certainly do not represent the English as an ethnic group, the majority might be recent immigrants. The onus is on the editor who includes the material to ensure a reliable source. For instance... If an editor is convinced that the English are a lost tribe of Israel (some people are), and then quotes statistics from the Israeli census to show they mainly speak Ivrit, the onus is on the editor to show that the statistics (accurate in themselves) are applicable to the subject of the article.Paul111 11:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How much immigration to England do you think there has been? Do you think these samples were taken from recent immigrants? Have you proof that these data have been distorted? Do you know of any studies that dispute these findings? Are you disputing the accuracy of this work? Do you think that the population is primarily composed of people who are not English? I really don't understand the source of your scepticism. I don't really understand what you are getting at. I do think that these data should not really be in this article. I think we need an article about the origins of British and Irish people, where we can put all of these genetic studies, they don't really fit here. I think the origins of the English as an ethnic group are quite recent, and lie in the unification of the country in the tenth century. I don't think our identity or ethnicity is defined by the founding paleolithic populations of the British and Irish Isles, though they are clearly the ancestors of modern English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish people, and also of the vast majority of the modern population of the British and Irish Isles. I also dispute how "English" self identified "English people" living in North America really are, when they edit here they often display a very superficial understanding of English culture and society, personally I think many North Americans that identify as English have little or no real concept of English ethnic identity whatsoever, and are merely the descendants of English people, and so assume that they are ethnically English, when in effect their society and culture would be alien to the English ethnic group. The data at the top of the page are extremely unreliable, and mainly refer to English descent rather than to English ethnic identity. I do not like them and do not think they are accurate. I do think your edit was excellent and support it. Alun 12:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul seems to be interested in genetic studies that take into account people of English and British ancestry living in other areas like the United States. I think he can find this interesting:

Saxons, Vikings, and Celts The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland

By Bryan Sykes Narrated by Dick Hill


Saxons, Vikings, and Celts is the most illuminating book yet to be written about the genetic history of Britain and Ireland. Through a systematic, ten-year DNA survey of more than 10,000 volunteers, Bryan Sykes has traced the true genetic makeup of British Islanders and their descendants. This historical travelogue and genetic tour of the fabled isles, which includes accounts of the Roman invasions and Norman conquests, takes readers from the Pontnewydd cave in North Wales, where a 300,000-year-old tooth was discovered, to the resting place of "The Red Lady" of Paviland, whose anatomically modern body was dyed with ochre by her grieving relatives nearly 29,000 years ago. A perfect work for anyone interested in the genealogy of England, Scotland, or Ireland, Saxons, Vikings, and Celts features a chapter specifically addressing the genetic makeup of those people in the United States who have descended from the British Isles.

I have pasted it from here: http://www.tantor.com/BookDetail.asp?Product=0335_SaxonsCelts

There are plenty of reviews now in the net about the book. 70.156.143.221 19:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think this is the same as the book Blood of the Isles, possibly it has a different name in the US? It's OK, I'm currently reading it. One of the problems with Sykes's work is that he doesn't use standard genetic nomenclature. It's highly accessible to the layman and is well written, though it's light on content and detailed analysis. A much more detailed and authoritative book is Stephen Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story. There's much more detail and his list of sources is very comprehensive. Oppenheimer also relies on the previously published work of other academics, which means that it is easy to go and find the papers and works he has used in the book. The drawback of Oppenheimer's book is that it is far less accessible, indeed I think on occasion he goes into too much detail, but he does use standard genetic names, and charts numerous founding events for the British Isles from the Basque and Balkan refugia and from the Near Eastern neolithic expansion. Both these books show convincingly that the modern population of the British and Irish Isles are overwhelmingly descended from these original colonisers from the paleolithic and neolithic (mainly from the Basque refuge, this can be shown using bothe Y chromosome data and mtDNA data,) though there is evidence of a smaller founding event in England of people from the Balkan refuge) and that subsequent invasions were small in scale. These subsequent invasions can be traced genetically, but their legacy indicates that the sort of "mass" invasions/migrations and displacements that were considered to have occured in the past never happened. There was no displacement of the entire population of south eastern Great Britain by "Germanic invaders". Indeed there is a growing idea that the south eastern part of Great Britain has had a Germanic language for much longer than was previously thought. Oppenheimer thinks that the peoples living in northern France (north of the Seine) and in southern Britain may have been closely related and have spoken Germanic languages even in Caesar's time. Alun 06:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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