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Thanks for updating the FIrearms text in the [[United States
I knew there was more to write but I didn't have the time, energy or interest. I figured if I got it started, someone else would come along and improve it.
Hi Bruce, glad you didn't take my comment to heart. Have you read the talk page archives for Cuba and Castro? You'll see what you are up against with your hopes for civilty, or consensus. I've considered various strategies over the last few months, but in the end I'd need to spend more of my week than I have spare to get anywhere with what I consider necessary - the development of a twin track entry. Too many people out there who feel it necessary to overwrite contrary perspectives. I do feel strongly that invoking Wiki standards/mediation/etc is a real waste of time. The regular warriors simply take a break and when the page is open again return to their edit warring, and meanwhile there are plenty of newcomers/passers by, ignorant of the page's history and debate, who plunge straight in with their asserted truths. My opinion is take it as it is and do your best to uphold some encyclopedic standards, which in this case do amount to describing the range of viewpoints on the subject. Don't expect more than small victories, and hope that they will accumulate. MichaelW09:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce. I appreciate your efforts to apply encyclopedia and wikipedia standards on the Cuba page. I believe that these immediate disputes will be ironed out, even if the dispute process is moved on somewhat. I will continue to support any efforts here.
What I'm also interested in is what occurs after this dispute is resolved. I'd like to liase with other parties to minimize the potential of such breaches of NPOV on this page in the future. It's an important aspect of Misplaced Pages, the internet and thus has wider implications.
It's striking to observe the difficulties some editors have in applying objective standards. Personally I have argued (and will continue to argue) at length with socialists and Marxist-Leninists etc outside wikipedia about the implementation of such ideologies. And I've been accused in some circles of being an anti-Castro reactionary (though I dispute that also!). But all of this should be left at the door when editing Misplaced Pages. My motivation is to challenge common misinterpretations and cultural bias, so we can present an accurate picture of Cuba free from dominant received wisdom. --Zleitzen13:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce, are you still interested in progressing the dispute process, and following the step towards formal mediation?--Zleitzen21:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, sure. Doesn't mediation require that all parties be willing to mediate? I don't see that we meet that condition right now. BruceHallman21:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce, I've sent you an email, in the mean time I think it is worth considering a Rfc on Adam Carr. Do you have any thoughts on this?--Zleitzen22:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Boo - I take it not a thing has expanded since the last war of words and insult flinging at the mediators? I see Adam and his buddies have stopped torturing the talkpage. --Scott Grayban05:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, no IM, but everybody is invited to email me, including you. My email is bruce@hallman.org and I try to respond quickly. I trust that Misplaced Pages, ultimately, will be fair about this. I regret that some at Cuba appear to feel that they 'own' the article and appear unwilling to 'play nice', collaborate and compromise towards a NPOV. Still all POV's must be represented including POV's I don't like. I am willing to give the benifit of the doubt, and they may still come around sometime soon. BruceHallman21:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Personal attacks have only taken place where another editor has criticised you as a person, not your edits or pronouncements. When Adam stated that he could not begin to express his views about you, he was not making a personal attack. He then went on to express his opinions of what you had written. There are therefore no personal attacks to admonish. David | Talk17:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Received this email from MichaelW saying that he's been blocked?
"You were blocked by PMA for the following reason (see our blocking policy):
"Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "MichaelW".
The reason given for MichaelW's block is: "POV edits, article degradation,
POV pushing, abuse of other editors, lack of good faith"."--Zleitzen03:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you read User talk:PMA you see that PMA appears to be quite cordial with User:172
I have requested PMA to explain the block, but he has not replied yet.
And my reading of PMA posts in Talk:Cuba reveals his strong POV, which happens to be the opposite POV of MichaelW. I guess I was naive to expect that administrators should recuse themselves from disputes in which they have an appearance of conflict of interest. BruceHallman14:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Please look at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Richardchilton for why i have such a poor view of Marxist POV contributors to the 'pedia - i have given them a chance as that page proves - also i have been here for many years and an admin for three - i am not some cluless newbie who petulantly blocks people. For what it's worth i did unblock him when told to by the Powers That Be. PMA15:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
His open advocation of pushing a Marxist POV on the Cuba page - also see his own talk page for his use of phrases such as "capitalist fanboys" - as i said with my experience of people like Richardchilton and his sockpuppets and cohorts i am wary of lefist POV pushers - ditto for right wing POV pushers when it comes to the crimes and death squads of right wing governments of Africa, Asia and the Americas - i try to protect articles from both "The Communist Peoples Party" on one side and "The National Salvation Front" on the other as someone put it on here some years ago.
I would very much prefer to move forward towards building a great article. Fighting about the past would get in the way of building a great article. I encourge everybody if they can, including Scott and MichaelW, to let any grievance drop and try again to find a way to collaborate. One thing is perfectly clear, fighting is a distraction. Therefore, I am not interested in fighting. Let's move on. BruceHallman16:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for supporting the RfC on Adam. I know everyone wants avoid this issue at all costs but its the only way to get this article done and out of a dispute. I honestly did not want it to go this way and view Adam as a smart person. I just am tired of the constant attacks from him. --Scott Grayban17:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce, I think you need to inform Adam formally of the Rfc. Other than that I see no reason why it should close, whether Scott is banned or not. Regardless, I'll step up to be a co-signer if possible. I think the wider issues of Misplaced Pages conduct are too important to drop, they need to be seriously addressed. And eventually will be. --Zleitzen14:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Email
I have just sent you an email confirming my address. I only give it out by request, just to cut down on the hatemail/spam etc. Thanks! Mystork00:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Ban on Scott Grayban
You have just falsely accused me of initiating the ban on Scott Grayban. You must either produce some evidence for this allegation or retract it, or I will take the matter further. Adam13:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for any misunderstanding. I have edited what I wrote trying to make myself more clear. What I wrote, and what I intended to convey, was not to accuse you of initiating the ban of Scott Grayban, but to rather ask questions about the appearance of timing. As I tried to make clear before, I do not have good information and my repeated requests for information have gone unfulfilled. Regardless, the second hand information that I do have raises a question of appearances as to the timing, and raises a question of appearance of retaliation. I hope you join me in wanting the facts to be disclosed. BruceHallman14:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Before Adam Carr told you, I told you that I was the one requesting the block-- on multiple pages. Unfounded allegations are considered personal attacks. 172 | Talk07:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Certainly you didn't speak with me so you couldn't have 'told' me, and if you wrote it to me I don't see it on my talk page, and I searched my inbox and don't see an email from you. If you wrote such to the general Misplaced Pages community, I don't recall reading it until you wrote it much after the fact on 04:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC), sorry. Regardless, I made no false allegation. I simply pointed out an odd appearance and asked for the facts. I still haven't been shown the facts about the evidence used for the ban, the source of the evidence and the timing. BruceHallman13:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that asking for a block, (which you claim to have done), and providing the evidence, (which Adam claims to have done) are significantly different steps in the process that led to the banning of Sgrayban. I apologized to Adam Carr. It appears he has accepted my apology. So, it is not clear why you now are warning me, (or accusing me?) about 'false allegations' when I made no false allegation and 'personally attacks' when I made no personal attack. This too appears odd, but can we just move on to something more constructive? BruceHallman13:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Welcome to Esperanza
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Hi. I saw your alert at Esperanza and wanted to stop by to see what's up. I've looked through your talk page and edit summaries some; it's a pretty big issue to grasp, having come in at this stage. I'd like to know more about it, so if you have time for a longer explanation, that'd be helpful. In the meantime, hope that you're keeping cool and not letting the edit wars get to you... perhaps taking a break on the side to edit a less controversial article would be a good way to refocus before heading back into the Bay of Pigs (sorry, awful joke). Tijuana Brass06:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to explain your side of the situation to me, I appreciate it. As you know, I'm not able to take a side on the content dispute, and it's be pretty foolish of me to do so anyway as my knowledge of Cuba is limited to Celia Cruz, vintage cars and plaintains. Nonetheless, I agree that personal attacks aren't acceptable in any context... they ruin good faith, stifle intelligent discussion and turn users away from Misplaced Pages. I guess it happens to everyone sooner or later, even from the best of us.
At any rate, I'm glad that you haven't become frustrated and decided to call it quits. To offer some unsolicited advice, when I start to get irritated with vandals, I'll take a break to do some behind the scene stuff... pick up on some article cleanups or wikifying. Helps keep me sharp. May work for you, may not, in any case, you'd know better than me what's relaxing. I hope that y'all find a middle ground soon; I'll be watching the article myself, as it's a subject I've long been meaning to read up on. Thanks for being here. Tijuana Brass06:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen's agreement?
See my request here. It's an unorthodox request, but I'm sure it'll work. Please accept. It'll make things much easier for the two of us, and everyone else. 172 | Talk21:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
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Referendums are to be held on whether terms of AC members should be lengthened and whether we should abolish votes full stop.
Sorry, hadn't had the chance to reply, as I haven't been near an internet connection since Friday.
I asked Adam to stop reverting, and he duly did so. I then asked CarlKenner to do the same, as he was being reverted by a bunch of parties and was very far over the three revert rule. He then accused me of being a vandal. I then made it clear that I would block him if he continued to do so, and he accused me of being a vandal again and made clear his intention to continue. He was thus completely fairly blocked. Ambi04:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Second amendment / keep and bear arms
I'm happy to talk about the edit, but I'm not sure that I understand your bifurcation of the right to keep and bear arms, and the second amendment which protects that right? Simon Dodd13:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand how the material I added is in tension with the idea that the amendment protects, rather than creates, a right to keep and bear arms. Indeed, no one could be further from that proposition than I: I don't believe the Constitution - or for that matter, that any constitution CAN - creates any rights. The Federal and state constitutions prevent certain rights from being taken away by government. Those rights already existed, which of course is the point of the material that I added: that the right to keep and bear arms existed for centuries before the authors of the second amendment were born, and so the second amendment is only a codification of that right, and a protection of it from government intrusion (the history also absolutely forecloses the proposition that the second amendment protects a collective, rather than individual, right to arms, which makes its inclusion even more important). The second amendment, by the way, did not purport to "protect the right from being abridged by the States"; until 1868, it protected the right from being abridged by the federal government. See Barron v. Baltimore. Simon Dodd15:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba
Hi Bruce, I actually preferred Adam's paragraph to the present one, as it carried the more substantial piece by Jimmy Carter. There's something about that Sandy Berger nonsense that gets my goat. What are your thoughts, if any? Oh and I'm off to the pub for the first time in weeks (Hoorah!) so my responses may be out of focus for the next 24 hours!--Zleitzen20:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce, keep this link stored away in case I lose it, it's a big file by the way. if users want sourced opinions from outside bodies appearing in the article, try this for size. Some of the organisations involved represent millions of people. --Zleitzen04:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It's fascinating to me, though. Slightly off topic, but this Cuba democracy/elections business is reminiscent to me of the hugely defining and bitter UK miners' strike (1984-1985). The powerful UK trade unions traditionally based decisions on voting by public meeting, discussion and an open show of hands. The Thatcher government of the time enforced a law declaring the actions illegitimate, utilising police to break the union . They liased with the Rupert Murdoch owned media to portray union leader Arthur Scargill as a tyrant (featuring a front-page picture of Scargill mocked up as Hitler) and the Unions as a "threat to democracy" . The government won, the Union and mining industry was effectively disbanded, ushering in the era of private capital dominance to the benefit of Thatcher's international corporate sponsors. It's a highly effective tool of politics, and it usually works. Of course, the activities of the government during the affair were later declared illegal, newspapers were forced to pay damages to Scargill and Blair's government have had to pay over £8b of public money to compensate miners for "illness" (and counting). But by then the sting had been activated and the international private sector had managed to gain control of the UK economy. If anyone needs theories to explain US public policy towards Cuba one may look no further than the above story. Call me a cynic, if you must! --Zleitzen18:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuban democracy
Actually, I really don't want to get into a discussion of the semantics and connotations surrounding the term 'democracy'. (Democracy is like pornography—I know it when I see it. :D ) I haven't any intention of wading into editing the article, since there appear to be a sufficient number of informed and enthusiastic volunteers for that duty. I'm only interested in tamping down what appears to be the start of an edit war, and encouraging the involved parties to discuss things civilly and productively. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Direct Access Democracy
I removed the link to Direct Access Democracy on the Democracy (disambiguation) page (which really needs more work). The article itself seems to be a semi-vanity page for this website - most of the uses of the phrase I've come across so far link back there somehow. Specifically, I don't think I've seen the term used generally for anything going on in Switzerland, whether it be referendums or experiments in internet voting. - David Oberst17:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, if you look at the edit history of the Direct Access Democracy Canada article, I actually just recently pruned it down to the current format (and added the "importance" tag). Personally, I suspect this is a private hobby-horse for one rather eccentric individual who enjoys creating large amounts of formal verbiage - I found absolutely no indication of even minimal notability or membership outside of Mr. Oprea. The article would probably get deleted as vanity, original research or non-notable if put up on WP:AFD, and definitely doesn't need to have an entry on a main-level disambiguation page such as Democracy (disambiguation), and in any case seems to be only marginally related to the equally idiosyncratic Direct Access Democracy article. Frankly, I could create a website for, say, "Kitten Drowning Democracy", complete with constitution, platform, and all the rest, and likely get more that 138 votes in certain Canadian ridings. Mr. Oprea is undoubtedly much more earnest, but no more notable. - David Oberst18:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuban Five
Hi Bruce
Thank you for your constructive edits to Cuban Five I've had enough of Misplaced Pages for today, I need a break. A few suggestions: add info outlining arguments for why the trial was so flawed. I think the conclusions of the UN commission of why the trial was arbitrary, or general conclusions from the overturning would be even more convincing than the Amnesty claims, which are not very strong. Also, the Cuban Five website seems a good resource of legal documents. Surely there's plenty reliable material there we can refer to. I think we can make agood article out of it if we include good bits of court material, and a solid sections on criticism of the trial, and to balance that to include prosecution arguments too. Jens Nielsen15:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Tags
There were already tags there to begin with. I just replaced them so there wasn't an ugly white space at the top. CJK00:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, sorry. But the ugly white space had to go. And the tags say the same thing, except for "factual accuracy". CJK18:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, and CJK. I've roughly translated (via copy and paste / Bable-Fish) three translations of the Cuba page from the Spanish, French and German wikipedia versions, to get an idea of the differences between those and ours. And a bit more of a world view. If you can get through the pigeon English it's worth a look, amusingly - those pages have the same "neutrality" and protected tags all over the place as well. So we're not alone. --Zleitzen02:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I created an informal straw poll in the Talk:Democracy (disambiguation) page, which hopefully is prefererable to immediate reverting back and forth. In all sincerity I can't quite figure out your reasoning on this. I could understand (although would still oppose) some sort of "democracy=American system of government" link to some single page. But to (implicitly) seven or eight different "types" of democracy specific to American political history makes no sense at all. Please don't see the poll as a vote - I set it up to try and uncover any disagreement to what I (and presumably User:JW1805) seem to see as fairly obvious (even in Misplaced Pages style and precedent terms). Out of curiosity, would you agree with any variation of point (1) in the poll, even if you feel each of the articles does belong? - David Oberst16:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
A short Esperanzial update
As you may have gathered, discussions have been raging for about a week on the Esperanza talk page as to the future direction of Esperanza. Some of these are still ongoing and warrant more input (such as the idea to scrap the members list altogether). However, some decisions have been made and the charter has hence been amended. See what happened. Basically, the whole leadership has had a reshuffle, so please review the new, improved charter.
As a result, we are electing 4 people this month. They will replace JoanneB and Pschemp and form a new tranche A, serving until December. Elections will begin on 2006-07-02 and last until 2006-07-09. If you wish to run for a Council position, add your name to the list before 2006-07-02. For more details, see Misplaced Pages:Esperanza/June 2006 elections.
Hi Bruce, you wouldn't mind taking a look at this article for deletion Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Clase Z "Tropical". It's a Cuban short film which has some notability, yet users apparently deem this not appropriate for wikipedia - citing spurious google searches as evidence. Personally I think this is wrong, as the subject has much more interest to me (I studied Cuban cinema for a year) than the acres of articles on fictional characters from Star Wars. What's more, the editor who has been creating a number of articles on Cuban cinema is treated with the following comment - "Very likely a vanity article, as article author has only made edits promoting this filmmaker". This is nonsense.--Zleitzen15:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Awarded for being a key part of the general efforts to hammer the Cuban articles towards encyclopedic standards as opposed to received wisdom. And for taking a huge amount of well publicised flak for attempting to do so without giving up! Congratulations. Zleitzen00:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Teemu has received a final warning today
For what it is worth, Ian¹³/t 08:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC) left a message on Teemu's page earlier today warning him of a possible editorial ban if he continues. KarenAnn14:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Sandbox
Given the horrendous problems of working on the Fidel Castro page and Teemu's continued activity, would you be interested on working on a sandbox version with Mensch KarenAnn and myself. Away from the main page. We could hone down individual sections, then replace each of them in a careful appropriate manner. --Zleitzen13:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey Bruce. I saw what you did with the red carpet image and I think it's maybe better to convert the whole image to greyscale. A manipulated picture is certainly going to attract attention of people who don't get offended by red carpets, but by manipulated red carpets... mensch • t19:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
It's a good solution. But manipulating parts of the image might conflict with the licensing policy. We'll see how it turns out. If something goes wrong I'll be happy to convert the image to greyscale, so you don't have to bother with the GIMP. ;) mensch • t20:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for being respectful
Hi Bruce, I know we don't quite agree with all the democracy disambiguation issues, but I wanted to thank you for being calm and respectful throughout the entire discussion - I'm really impressed, I know many an editor who would become rather aggrivated in your situation. Keep it up. :) -- Natalya02:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Something positive
It's clear that you have a lot of passion for the subject of democracy and seeing that it is fully and appropriately covered in the Misplaced Pages. I see that aspect as very beneficial. That's why I would positively recommend that you consider pouring that passion into helping out with the "varieties/types merger" (or whatever it is to become), or take on a bigger task: Start "WikiProject Democracy" as a child project of "WikiProject Politics". I think we can work together (and with others) on a project to enhance coverage of democracy-related subjects in the Misplaced Pages. I sincerely hope that you can accept the clear consensus on the dab page and convert that time/energy into building up democracy-related content throughout the Misplaced Pages. Thanks for your time. — Stevie is the man!17:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Fidel Falling Pic
Looks like the pic was included after all there big guy! Thanks for playing. Please come back again!
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Mythology of the Ohlone
Hi Bruce, I appreciated your mythology or world view discussion on the Ohlone talk page. I am working to get a better handle of the native myths of the Bay Area region. The Wiki Mythology project is currently understaffed and contacted me to say they need members. Would you like to join and signup on the page ? http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_MythologyGoldenrowley17:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bruce. Would you mind taking a look at the first two sections of the History of Cuba page that I've been tinkering with, that deal with the early settlers. I'm still not satisfied with the overall tone - how it reads and so on - it's a bit of a struggle trying to incorporate information into unsourced text that was already there and rather poorly constructed. I need another pair of eyes. Thanks.--Zleitzen01:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
License tagging for Image:EmeryvilleShellmound.png
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Ohlone Intro
Bruce, Goldenrowley and I have been working on a new intro. You might have missed the thread, so here it is. I've asked him (yesterday) to let it sit for 72 hours before placing it on the article page. Take a look, make changes or comments as you see fit. --meatclerk05:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have replied to you on my talk page. I do watch the article talk page however; perhaps if you want to extend this dicussion it could take place there. - O^O17:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Admin Coaching needs coaches!!! If you are an administrator, or even a generally experienced user, do consider signing up to be a coach.
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The Tutorial Drive is a new Esperanza program! In an effort to make complicated processes on Misplaced Pages easier for everyone, Esperanza working to create and compile a list of tutorials about processes here on Misplaced Pages. Consider writing one!
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The list of proposed programs has been updated, with some proposals being archived.
There is now a new program: the Tutorial Drive! Consider writing a tutorial on something you are good at doing on Misplaced Pages.
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Shreshth91 informed everyone that he will be leaving the Esperanza council as life is rather busy; his spot will be filled by the runner up from the last election, HighwayCello.
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I'm all about continuous improvement. What wording would you recommend? Thoughts:
Terminally ill
Terminal diagnosis
Death watch
Death bed
Dying
I think the important point to express with whatever wording you like is that the reader understands that this person is currently living but has been diagnosed as terminally ill. And, of course, the diagnosis should be verifiable and not just an editor's opinion. For example, Patricia C. Dunn has stage IV ovarian cancer - a stage that's nearly always fatal. However, I haven't found any sources that describe her condition as terminal, so... no such category for her (yet). Rklawton17:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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