User talk:GPinkerton - Misplaced Pages

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March 2020

Hello, I'm Jingiby. Misplaced Pages is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 18:31, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Please do not add commentary, your own point of view, or your own personal analysis to Misplaced Pages articles. Doing so violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to violate Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy by adding commentary and your personal analysis into articles, you may be blocked from editing. Jingiby (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

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Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

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Rescue of the Bulgarian Jews

Hi, can you please point me out where in the source is used the term "Nazi-allied Bulgaria" that you added to the article? Also, can you please provide the exact content of the pages 98-104 by Walter, because having in mind misusing the previous source, adding the "Nazi-allied Bulgaria" out of nothing, I have a doubts, that you're trying to "over-Nazify" the state. Regards! --StanProg (talk) 20:08, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Bulgaria was allied to the Nazis in WW2 and fought on the Germans' side. This is not a subject capable of dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GPinkerton (talk • contribs) 20:21, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

The source may not use the exact phraseology "Nazi-allied Bulgaria" but it is evident throughout that Bulgaria was in an alliance with Nazi Germany, as all the world knows. It is therefore beyond doubt that Bulgaria was allied with the Nazis and can be fittingly described in English as "Nazi-allied Bulgaria". I am struggling to understand what issue you are taking with the words. GPinkerton (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

The problem is not if it was allied or not, the problem is with overusing the term "Nazi", which can be seen as an agenda in your latest edits. It looks like you intentionally overusing it, even when supporting your claims with online sources that can be easily checked. What about the pages 98-104 by Walter? Can we see what is exactly there? --StanProg (talk) 20:35, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I have used it exactly once in the lead. I have never said the source you mentioned uses "Nazi-allied Bulgaria". My only agenda is to use reliable sources to create encyclopaedic content. Unless your agenda is to somehow exonerate Bulgaria for its involvement with Nazism and Nazi Germany, there is no reason for you to have a problem with the concept of Bulgaria being allied to Nazi Germany. It was, and the article ought to say so. It also helpfully ties the content to the wider history of the Holocaust because the expression "Nazi-allied Bulgaria" as succinctly as possible describes the international position of Bulgaria during the war and neatly explains why Bulgaria began confiscation of Jewish property, expulsions, race laws, deportations, and eventual genocide between 1939 and 1944 and helpfully excludes the remainder of Bulgarian history before the war and after 1944.

You appear to be removing well-sourced factual information for no good reason. Please desist, or else find suitable reliable sources that support the claims made in your edits. Your edits are being disruptive to Misplaced Pages. Please consult the sources cited before removing important information; you might learn a lot. Otherwise, you appear to be making partisan edits to obscure the facts and present a POV. GPinkerton (talk) 15:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary - I am adding information, based on a reliable academic source, confirming exactly the information along with the full text of the source. You have removed the provided source and the information, while you have provided no text from your sources, so we don't even know if they are real. This is called vandalism. Please, stop vandalizing the work of other editors and start providing reliable sources with quoted texts. --StanProg (talk) 16:43, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Read the footnotes I have added. I have added no fewer than seven reliable sources to this page. No information I have added is not backed up by at least two if not all of these sources. If you don't believe the information read the sources. If you can't read, don't delete sourced information out of spite. You have repeatedly removed the information relating to forced labour - you have obviously not checked the citations I have added, which all of them say "forced labour". You appear to deny this, but you have no reliable sources to back your claims. Find reliable sources, or I will keep deleting your non-idiomatic nonsense.

There are only references, no footnotes. I can see only one of the sources (by anonymous author from ushmm.org). Is this source part of your reliable sources? I don't own the rest of the books, so I can't read the text of the sources. This is why I asked you to provide the texts. In the only readable source it says "Bulgarian authorities also confiscated most of the property left behind by those deported." in the article you have added "The Jews, whose deportation from Bulgaria was halted, including all Sofia's 19,000 Jews, nonetheless had their property confiscated", so which properties were confiscated, the ones of the deported Jews (according to the source) or the ones that were not deported (according to the text you added)? This is why I needed to see the text of the sources you quote, because I'm starting to think that you're intentionally misquoting the sources. I have provided 1 source (not from anonymous author) which you can freely translate it with an online tool and check if it matches my text. --StanProg (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not you can read them is of no concern to me - I and anyone else reading the article can read the citations cited through the hyperlinks and see the facts written there. I have done nothing but transfer that information into Misplaced Pages. A machine translated text from a blog by a one-time member of a government committee does not constitute a reliable tertiary source, and certainly gives no grounds whatever to overturning the wording used by a half-dozen reliable, verifiable encyclopaedic soruces. (Oxford Handbook of Holocaust, US Holocaust Memorial Museum Encylopaedia, Crewe, Chary, and the rest). Perhaps there's a reason you can't find that one Bulgarian politician's POV opinions repeated in reliable English-language sources ...

I think you have been missing the point. Though Sofia's Jews were not deported outside Bulgaria, they were all deported from Sofia and other Jews from other cities likewise deported to camps and ghettos within Bulgaria and their property seized. GPinkerton (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Please, answer in this discussion by pinging me. That's the normal way Wikipedians do discussions. I think you're missing the point. "Bulgarian authorities also confiscated most of the property left behind by those deported.". Deported is not related to the people that were expelled from Sofia the country interrion. Deportation is a specific term, it has a specific meaning, including in the source provided by you (Note the "expulsion" part). An of course in this source it says "most of the property", and you wrote in the article "had their property confiscated". --StanProg (talk) 19:38, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

What part of deportation do you not understand? In English, deportation means eviction from one's place of residence and removal elsewhere. That's the specific meaning employed by both the sources and this Misplaced Pages article. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum Encylopedia says: Shortly thereafter, the Bulgarian government announced the expulsion of 20,000 Jews from Sofia to the provinces. (In 1934, the Jewish population of Sofia was about 25,000, 9 percent of the capital's total population.) Police brutally suppressed popular protests staged by both Jews and non-Jews. Within about two weeks, Bulgarian authorities expelled almost 20,000 Jews, relocated them to the Bulgarian countryside, and deployed males at forced labor in forced-labor camps. Bulgarian authorities also confiscated most of the property left behind by those deported. The people refereed to are all the Jews of Sofia. Expulsion and internal deportation are the same thing, or rather, two sides of the same thing. GPinkerton (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I perfectly understand what deportation within the context of the The Holocaust means. In the source the term expulsion/expelled is used exclusively for the relocation of the population within the state, while deported is used for deporting out of the state in the concentration camps. Most of the property of the Jews that were deported was confiscated and that's the fact which is described in the source. The ones expelled/relocated still had their property, excluding the "uncovered property", like fields, forests, etc. which they were obligated to sell according to the Law for Protection of the Nation . How was this "uncovered property" for example confiscated, when it was already sold. They had 3 months period from 23 January 1941 to do that. --StanProg (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

You said: "In the source the term expulsion/expelled is used exclusively for the relocation of the population within the state, while deported is used for deporting out of the state in the concentration camps." This is false! Expulsion is used for the Jews being forced to leave (expelled from) their homes, "deportation" is used for their transport elsewhere (whether within or without Bulgaria). Do not distort the source just because your English isn't good enough to parse it. Since you haven't understood the source quoted above, perhaps this one is clearer: "But when Belev presented plans for deporting Jews from Sofia either to Poland or to the provinces, the Bulgarian authorities chose the latter alternative. Consequently, 25,743 Jews from Sofia were sent to the countryside, along with another few hundred Jews from Stara Zagora and Kazanlak" - Ioanid, 2010. It's becoming increasingly clear you want to deny this well-attested fact. You said: "The ones expelled/relocated still had their property". This is false and conflicts with the sources. Why can't you find any source which supports your POV? I wonder .... GPinkerton (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2020 (UTC)