Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Evanlewis26 (talk | contribs) at 12:49, 15 December 2004 (Robert Fisk Reference). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An event mentioned in this article is a June 6 selected anniversary

3 revert rule

Style, I have not violated the 3 revert rule. I NPOVd your many POV edits, restoring some deleted information, but certainly not reverting or changing all, or even the majority of your work. You then reverted my own edits 4 times, which is a violation of Misplaced Pages rules. Please voluntarily revert to the previous version to undo this breach, and please bring your proposed edits to Talk: . Jayjg 18:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A revert is a revert is a revert. You reverted my edits first. And look closely, I didn't revert to the same version 4 times. --style 05:22, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

People, I checked the history page, there are not many point of disagreement, please talk it out in here. For the meanwhile, either leave the orginal page until NPOV is resolved or find a temporary comprised version. Put NPOV notoce if you see right. MathKnight 20:43, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Subsequently, the Sabra and Shatila massacre occurred during Israel's occupation of West Beirut.

This does not belong in the introduction; it is not a critical piece of information about the war, and is one of many massacres committed in the overall Lebanon war, including in those very camps. Jayjg 21:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It does belong in the intro, because it is a important, historic event of greater fame (infamy?) and notability than the war itself. For example, the article on the massacre is _much_ bigger than this article.

I'll respond to your other edits here. They are all obviously factually incorrect and POV. Palestinians alone did not kill thousands of Lebanese civilians; both sides committed massacres. There was not intense international pressure placed only upon the Palestinians; there was pressure on both sides to achieve peace. And I really don't see how writing "hundreds, possibly thousands" is better than "700-3000" for the massacre casualties. Why are you wasting my time? --style 05:19, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

Shebaa Farms

Style you keep reverting the change from Sheeba Farms to Shebaa Farms, which is the name of the Misplaced Pages article. Why? Jayjg 21:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Background

Jayjg, I have added completely new information to this page, there is no duplication, and the background is necessary to explain the context of the 1982 war. It's curious, the previous version's background went back to 1976 but you didn't delete that, Jayjg. And you still haven't explained your previous reverts. --style 18:34, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

Discussion

The (current) edit war seems to be over how much background to include. Instead of reverting, how about discussing these issues:

• How much background should be included or excluded?
• Why?

—No-One Jones  19:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The background should deal with events immediately leading up to the conflict, and immediately relevant to it. A POV re-write of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict is not appropriate, particularly as it creates two contradictory version of that history; a see also is quite enough. And if it is appropriate to go back to 1948, why stop there? Why not go back to the 1929 Hebron riots, or the 1917 Balfour declaration, or Saladin, or the Muslim conquest, or the Roman conquest, or the Maccabean victories, or... Jayjg 21:15, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing this, both of you. All the information in this page is accurate and relevant to the 1982 war, and consistent with historical facts about the Arab-Israeli conflict. The only question is if it would be better on other pages. As a gesture of good faith, I have moved the 1948 background to History of Lebanon and the civil war background to Lebanese Civil War. The other pre-1982 information is important, and should remain on this page to show the history of PLO-Israeli conflict, unless someone has a better page for it. I am also considering creating a more general page, such as Israeli-Lebanon conflict.

--style 01:37, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

I think Style's suggestion of moving much of the detail to more appropriate articles has merit. If the text dealing with Operation Litani were moved into that article and the remainder cut down to some two- or three-sentence summaries, then we might end up with a level of background acceptable to all. —No-One Jones  05:32, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Personally, I didn't want to create a new article, as it's difficult enough to contribute to existing articles, but as you think it's a good idea, I've made Operation Litani and put all the pre-1982 information there. I've left one paragraph summarizing the situation in Lebanon in, because I think one parapaph of background is acceptable as it's less than what was there before. (Remarks removed too, per request.)

IZAK: Nice work with the map, thanks, but I don't see the relevance of the 2000 events regarding resolution 425 to the 1982 war. I've moved your info (slightly edited) to Operation Litani, in accordance with WP norms. --style 08:55, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added the info about the UN Sec Gen's certfication in 2000 that Israel has complied with UN Res 425, an important "official" ending for the 1982 invasion. IZAK 10:05, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Phosphorus

The paragraph contains important information about Israel's conduct in the war. It does not contain any extraneous details about phosphorus. Why is important information being deleted? And why are citations being deleted? --style 12:05, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

What do you imagine the important information that is "about Israel's conduct", not phosphorus shells, that is being deleted? Please be specific. Jayjg 19:20, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Firing cluster bombs into civilian areas, where children might play with them. And what do you imagine the important information that is "about phosphorus" that you are repeatedly deleting? Please be specific. --style 23:37, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Um, the version you keep reverting to says nothing about "firing cluster bombs into civilian areas". Try again. Jayjg 00:05, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's what is implied if children are playing with them. Why are you deleting the cite, regardless? That is against WP policy. --style 09:11, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

So you're saying I'm deleting something that's not actually in the text, but is implied by it? The sentence already uses the word "civilian" twice, I don't think that implies military. Jayjg 16:29, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Robert Fisk Reference

Is this reference to Robert Fisk really necessary in this article? The paragraph describing Israeli killing of civilians seems out of place and misleading. What is the purpose of mentioning this? Why are there no factual statistics accompanying this point? Simply saying "often to children" in reference to phosphorous shells leaves a quesitonable account of the events that transpired in this war. Moreover, Fisk has a reputation and a history of being very biased against Israel and the US. Is the intention of the author of this article to relay a one-sided, biased account of the 1982 Operation for Peace in the Galilee? If not, then perhaps the opinions or writings of another journalist with less bias to either side would be appropriate here.

-ecl26