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The article looks promising but clean up and npov has to be definately done. Also removed the reference to this article as a Hinduism stub. How is this a Hindusim stub? Calvinkrishy 10:36, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Hindus were the focus of the inquistion

Christian converts were the focus of the inquisition. The article relies on anti-christian sources

inquistions were religious presecutions. This one was aimed at Hindus. It is apart Hindu history and their persecution and struggle to survive. That is why the stub should stay. I would have put the xtianity stub, but I thought xtians wouldn't like it and deny it. --Dangerous-Boy 07:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, this article lacks objectivity and doesn't meet any criteria of intelectual probity. The author is not only ignorant, but bases his blurb on pure prejudice with total disreard for written documents. The following are historical facts: 1. the iniquisition WAS NOT directed at non-catholics; 2. In the four two hundred years of Inquisition in Goa a total of 214 people were executed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jandolin (talk • contribs) .

Please see WP:BLP. Do not remove sourced info without consensus. Bakaman Bakatalk 00:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is ridiculous when it comes to referencing its claims. The "source" http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/inquisition_goa.htm is unscientific and anti-christian slander.

references?

Where are the references that are supposed to cited for the detailed list?

Have updated the section to the references

it's all good then.

I'm cool with that.--Dangerous-Boy 21:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

kama sutra?

where's your source for that? --Dangerous-Boy

Needs NPOV =

The material on this page reads as if it all derives from Hindu anti-Christian polemic. This, remember, is used in India TODAY by extremists to justify burning sleeping Australian missionaries and their families alive. That is to say, it looks like propaganda by the group which holds all the power in modern India against a minority which has been the subject of official and unofficial violence. So it's pretty important that whatever is said is accurate, neutral and balanced, particularly since the subject is one that tends to demonise. Some of the article does this; much of it smells as if it had a hate-literature origin.

The general lack of balance is evident in basic things that are missing from the article. Why did the inquisition come? We're not really told, but we're led to suppose it was only because Xavier asked for it. (Is that the actual reason? He was dead by then!) Why did he ask? No answer is given to this. Thus we can infer that the original author just wanted to link St. Francis Xavier, the apostle of the East, to atrocities, and not to explain what was happening here. Other examples are the lack of proper references for any statement; the general tendency of the article to smear the Christian faith-community; the lack of precision, and so forth.

I don't profess to know anything about the subject. I merely enter a plea for NPOV, soon, please. As it stands I think that this article might incite violence against a minority group.

Actually congress holds all the power in India and they support the minorities. St. Xavier wrote the letter. The inquisition was installed 8 years after he died. To top off the insult, the buried him there, and made a monument to him! Probably should put in references later. --Dangerous-Boy 21:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1137165487

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1135988901

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm

i really dont feel that the article is a balaced litrature

i feel that the article is written in a different era by someone who is trying to defame the saint , st.francis xavier i very much do not agree with the article. The refrences made are very general, it was ment to show the christian mission in bad light which is not so.

The need for the inquisition should be studied.

The hinduism which is being practiced now is by far different from what was before. The brahmins and the upper caste used superstion to take advantage of the lower caste people, who are still a big majority community in india.

practices like untouchability,sati and child marriages were rampant during those era and lets not forget human sacrifices and devadasi system which the rational portugese found hard to digest.

The writer also tells us that the inquisition stopped because of the british , but i have to ask him that the people who belived in "divide and rule ", why will let a chance pass them when they see society rotten to such and extent.

I am not against any religion but lets be rational and get the facts right about writing any thing because changing history can have an adverse affect on the person who is reading the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.214.50.173 (talk • contribs)

Sati came because of Muslims raping Hindu women. Child marriages? Life expectancy was extremely low. Untouchability? The Muslims only hired high caste Hindus for work. Bakaman%% 02:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I burst out laughing at that one. Has to be the funniest explanation for untouchability I've ever read.Hornplease
I think the british cemented untouchability.--D-Boy 07:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is extremely POV. Most of the references are to an absurdly extreme artcle which parrots claims about inquisitors gloating lasciviously over the torture of busty women etc etc. At no point is it made clear that the inquisition concerned supposed converts to Christianity who were suspected of secretlt practicing non-Christian religions. It implies that all non Christians were condemned. Now, it's ceratinly true that there was severe discrimination and that the public practice of Hinduism was proscribed, so there was ceratinly oppression of non-Christians, but we have to be accurate. Paul B 13:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The truth must be stated. If you think the article is POV, then the facts are POV. THe Goa Inquisition was like a mini-Holocaust. If you wished to add the true aim of this pogrom (to make Christian more Christian?) at the beginning I would not oppose, but a record of the brutality has to be kept. Bakaman%% 15:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems Jesuits and Christian fanatics here are perturbed by the reality of holocaust in Goa. The Goa holocaust was a historical fact and to make it a debatable topic is a shame.I am astonished by the very objection of Christian fanatics here.

Rediff

Rediff is a fine site to use.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Those questioning murders in Goa show proof

Those who are questioning the burning of Hindus in Goa should show proof. Just saying things like it would rouse murderous anti-minority sentiments or that it's POV are just opinions. They don't challenge the facts of happenings in Goa and the brutality of it all.

Charles Dellon and Goa Inquisition

The article should say something about Charles Dellon, whose account on the Goa inquisition (Relation de l'lnquisition de Goa), first published in 1687, was an immediate european best-seller translated in many languages inclusive English. This protestant doctor was arrested by the Inquisition and 3 years imprisoned. His description of it played a major role in the fight against intolerance during Enlightenment period, influencing among many Voltaire.

Click here to see Charles Dellon's page on spanish Misplaced Pages

Click here to see modern publication of Dellon's account (in French)

st xavier photo

He's the face of the inquisition. Don't remove the photo.Bakaman Bakatalk 23:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In what way is Francis Xavier the face of the inquisition? I really don't see the relevance he has to this article. Maybe he's worth a mention, but the photo of him should not be there, and I don't really see why there should be an external link to an article on him. Mind you, that article even says "It is ludicrous to assign to him any of the responsibility for the crimes and cruelty of the Inquisition in Goa." Atreyu81 06:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

POV

Added a POV notice. The burden of proof has been unfairly attempted to be moved to those who deny the so-called "facts" presented on this page. If genocide was committed or attempted at Goa, then the burden of proof is on those who claim this to prove it. Otherwise, the word "genocide" should be wiped from this page. Other changes should be made as well, such as removing the picture of Francis Xavier. The article itself says that Francis Xavier died before the inquisition started, therefore there is no way that he could be called "the face of the inquisition". The entire article is POV. Atreyu81 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You entire comment is POV as well. We have enough external links and references to prove the other points.Bakaman 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Where does the word, "genocide" come from? It is not mentioned in either of the pages referenced near the use of the term in the article. I suggest this word be removed from the article, as it has absolutely no relevance and is obviously inflammatory. Also, perhaps I should have used the POV tag instead...? Atreyu81 03:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed the POV check tag to a POV tag. Atreyu81 06:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


Replaced some of the more outlandish, polemical and unsourced allegations. Substituted material backed by History of Goa site.

Genocide?

I suggest we remove all references to the word "genocide", as there is no evidence of this occurring in the references given. Atreyu81 00:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Done, but the word "massacre" is mentioned in several of the refs. Hkelkar 00:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


The article as it existed is simply a religious hate article using a preposterous mixture of hysterical, impossible and contradictory allegations in the image of the worst sort of anti-Catholic hate-propaganda. Most of the "evidence" is from hate websites or polemical anti-catholic works. This sort of stuff should not be on wikipedia, where it can be used to justify attacks and persecution of the small Christian minority in India and elsewhere in southern Asia. I have removed some of the more ridiculous and contradictory claims.

Typical is the claim that thousands were killed by the Inquisition, when the site based in Goa, where they should know, and run by Indian nationalists shows less than 60 killed. Similar things are; rubbish about Hindus and Jews being "massacred" - yet later they still seem there to be persecuted and punished, and stopped from playing musical instruments. The claim that Jesuit priests massacred a town is another preposterous claim that is unsustainable. There are also racist tales about "Negro slaves" for some reson rubbing beef into Indian's mouths - and this is supposed to convert them, right? I'm sorry, but if people posted this sort of stuff about anyone but Catholics it would be removed immediately. Xandar 13:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


Someone keeps reverting all the hate-material back into this article. Xandar 15:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

the documented persecution and genocide of Goanese people is now called hate-material?Bakaman 23:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is HATE material, It is not from reputable sources and contains clear contradictions and lies. There is no "documented genocide" in Goa. The material has been generated from hate-propaganda sources in the interests of spreading hate-attacks on Christians.

Just a few things in the "article" that are clear and obvious lies

  • Jesuits supposedly led a massacre of Muslim Goans in 1510. The Jesuit order didn't even EXIST in 1510!
  • 'Thousands' of people wee killed by the Inquisition. The site based in Goa itself says 56 were killed.
  • Inquisitors persecuted Muslims and Hindus. The Inquisition only had authority over Christians.
  • Brahmins were nailed to crosses!!!! This is just so unbelievable it can hardly be credited that anyone over three years old could believe it! It's like saying Muslims burned people to death over a pile of Korans, or Hindus ate beef and Christian sandwiches. Christians would never kill someone by performing sacrilege on the sacred symbol of the cross!!!! CHRISTIANS have been nailed to the cross in Asia in the past, but NEVER the other way round.

Content being verifiable, doesn't mean that you can link to any old hate site or hate pamphlet, and that's okay. I could link to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. That doesn't mean the stuff is true! Xandar 14:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Brahmins being crucified. I believe that. The spanish were brutal in south america. I don't think the portugeuse were any better.--D-Boy 21:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course you would. Your obvious hatred would lead you to believe anything you read that slanders the Catholic Church - however ridiculous and impossible. There is NO WAY Catholics or any Christians would ever use the Holy Cross, their most sacred symbol, on which Jesus redeemed the world, to execute anyone! The story is so obviously invented that only a three year old could believe it! This shows the true nature of the drivel posted by you and others on this page. The point is this is an encyclopedia - not a place for recycling invented stories spreading violence and hate.

Oh yes. And try watching The Mission. The Jesuits were the ones whp protected the Indians in South America. Xandar 12:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


Some people seem very keen to keep re-publishing these obvious lies and smears here. This needs investigation. Xandar 12:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this page to stop the edit war. Please discuss the changes on this talk page, and once a consensus has been reached let me know on my talk page and I'll unprotect it. --Tango 15:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong version protected- This version has contradictory nonsense (54 people is unsourced, there was obviously more), also its been scarred y constant vandalism by cc80's army of socks.Bakaman 17:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
See meta:Wrong version. --Tango 20:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Reply - see Misplaced Pages:Protection_policy#How. Bakaman 02:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
You protected the wrong verion.--D-Boy 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Wrong version protected.Rumpelstiltskin223 22:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • It always is the wrong version, but Tango posted this for review on the admin noticeboards. Version is actually immaterial, the problem here is the content, edit-warring instead of debating, and the fact that people seem to have forgotten that the onus is on those seeking to include disputed content, to achieve consensus beforehand. So. Please keep calm and start discussing how, if at all, the disputed content can be included. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Can't be protected forever....--D-Boy 06:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Won't be. So discuss! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hornplease (talk • contribs) 10:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

This article will be protected for as long as it takes for consensus to be reach, and no longer. I suggest you start discussing it... I'll start you off. --Tango 12:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Controversial material

Reasons to include:

  1. 1 - Who cares if Christians are being attacked? Misplaced Pages doesnt censor information. Hindus are being attacked by Christians in India as well (see Nagaland Rebels, NLFT, etc.)
It is rather important that wikipedia isn't used to promote violence and extremism through giving credence to inflammatory falsehoods. If someone is inflamed to start killing because of this article - a lot of people will care. Lets have facts not legends.

Reply - Wiki isnt being used to promote violence, though you are trying to whitewash atrocities performed by the Portugese on Hindu populations. Indians have lived with Christians before Christianity came to Portugal, and reading about European-initiated genocide is not going to make them hate their Christian countrymen.Bakaman 16:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. 2 - Look at the footnotes section. A cursory look would show that all the refs used are from reputable sources
Not so, the main refs for the worst allegations are from personal sites - not acceptable as sources, and sites run by anti-christians
  1. 3 - What goa site? Other sources seem to have a consensus while this qoa site (not entirely reliable in itself) gives an amazingly low number. The catholic church may also wish to cover up its misdeeds
The main goa site is run from Goa and is not a Christian site. Goa is 60% Hindu. The site supports the Indian "Liberation" of Goa from Portugal and advertises Hindu temples. In other words it is a site put together by people not blinded by bigotry.
  1. 4 - Hindus/Muslims/Jews were obviously enemies of the Christian faith
Even if true, that still wouldn't source these wild allegations
  1. 5- Muslims were massacred by Albuquerque (he's my turkey....lol) in 1510
  1. 6 - Buddhists were nailed to crosses as well. Do see Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi . Some have even suggested that Oda was a closet Christian.
Neither gentlemen died on a cross. Nor were they members of the Inquisition. Some Japanese christians were nailed to crosses by non-christians.
  • Reply - I was assuming you knew that Oda Nobunaga engaged in the crucifixion of

his enemies, most of whom were Buddhist. An interesting point is that he got his guns from the Dutch and (guess who?) the Portugese.Bakaman 16:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


  1. 7 - I fail to see the "Contradictory information"
Saying Hindus and jews were wiped out and then reporting a few years later that these same dead people were allying with the Dutch, or being forbidden to use their musical instruments.

Reply - It states that Hindus were oppressed and in a perpetual state of fear not that theere wiped out. There were many colonies of Jews as well, not just the Cochin.Bakaman 16:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. 8 - Incidents are notable

Reasons not to include:

(put reasons here)

1. The main reason not to include is that the controversial material is untrue, emotive, and designed to stir up extremist hatred against Christians in certain parts of the world, particularly India where Christians have been subject to growing numbers of attacks see: Giving these allegations the backing of the Web's most popular encyclopaedia will give them credence in many eyes.

Stop banking upon one freak murder that took place back in 99... As for asianews.it is it neutral?

2. The controversial allegations are based, not on reputable sources, but largely on polemical websites and "Inquisition Literature" i.e propaganda put out by anti-Catholics between the 16th and 19th centuries - see Black Legend of the Inquisition, Historical revision of the Inquisition

Which sources are you questioning exactly?

3. The site likely to have the best available evidence for the dealings of the Goan Inquisition - the Official Goan site, run by people who support Indian nationalism, does not back up the controversial allegations made from outside Goa. It is always best to trust the sites closest to the events, and beware of those spreading exaggerations and legends.

IMHO... the Goan-Christian website will tend to be more POV than non-Goan websites

4. Most of the allegations are clearly incredible and unbelieveable. They are factually wrong, full of ridiculous errors, and therefore legends or inventions. Allegations so factually wrong: make all the other allegations based on the same sources highly suspect.

  • Jesuits supposedly led a massacre of Muslim Goans in 1510. The Jesuit order didn't even EXIST in 1510! These were presumably time-travelling Jesuits. I see that this allegation has now been amended.
  • 'Thousands' of people wee killed by the Inquisition. The site based in Goa itself says 54 were killed.
Turks deny Armenian genocide, its not as if it didnt happen!
  • "Massacres" of Hindus following 1560 - no reputable evidence of this, nor of the "pogrom" of Hindus referred to in para 3.
Which sources are you questioning?
  • "Inquisitors persecuted Muslims and Hindus". The Inquisition only had authority over Christians.
  • Brahmins were nailed to crosses!!!! This is just so unbelievable it can hardly be credited that anyone could credit it! It's like saying Muslims burned people to death over a pile of Korans, or Hindus ate beef and Christian sandwiches. Christians would never kill someone by performing sacrilege on the sacred symbol of the cross!!!! CHRISTIANS have been nailed to the cross in Asia in the past, but NEVER the other way round.
  • "The Portuguese let out their Negro slaves into the streets and as soon as they found a Hindu, they smeared the person's mouth with beef, making them untouchable in the eyes of other Hindus. Then they forcefully converted them." Clearly an emotive tale with no reputable support and strong overtones of racism. Why would the "negro slaves", once freed, rush out to do their masters bidding? Why would forcefully smearing a Hindu's mouth with beef make them more disposed to converting to catholicism?
You are obviously ignorant of orthodox Hinduism of medieval India. Merely consuming beef rendered one an outcaste in those days!
  • "Pagans" were flogged, interrogated, and dismembered in front of relatives. The Portugueses studies in anatomy enabled them to chop off limbs from people while they were still alive, even if all that was remaining was the torso attached to the head." More preposterous allegations "sourced" on the mish-mash of wild stories recycled on a personal website. This sort of allegation should not be on wikipediia without solid reputable sources.
  • "The portuguese destroyed the jewish poulation and settlements of Kodungalore and Cochin". yet in the next paragraph the Jewish population, apparently re-born, allies with the Dutch and eventually helps them take over.

Xandar 14:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

  • This ludicrous claim put there by Xandar:"Although the Inquisition was aimed primarily at Christians and had no authority over people of other faiths, those insulting Christianity could also sometimes face prosecution and punishment. The Hindus of Goa were one of the most affected by this." Shows the true nature of missionary propaganda. You accuse us of "hate speech" then add such hateful distortions (when did Hindus insult Christianity?) yourself. This and other Christian propaganda statements needs to be removed and facts re-instated. Rumpelstiltskin223 03:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

General comments:

(put general comments here) This is ridiculous and amusing that Christian fanatics are questioning the Goa holocaust. Christian history is full of crusades and the Goa inquisition was one of them in Asia. Even if you try to make it controversial by 1000 counter argument, the truth cannot be hidden.It is a FACT. And a documented event.Stop trying to defend black history of Christianity.Stop it now.Enough.

It is obvious that Xandar is CC80 vandalizing this article and trolling this page with nonsense.Rumpelstiltskin223 21:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
A checkuser was done that showed no obvious connection between CC80 and Xandar. --Tango 22:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Checkuser says more. It says that "edit pattern may be conclusive enough for a match".Are you sure you are unbiased here? Please excuse if disagree.Rumpelstiltskin223 23:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll comment on the vandalism investigation side of this (as distinct from the checkuser side). In October 2004 CC80's sockmaster AWilliamson was learning how to sign talk page posts and disclosing personal information on his Misplaced Pages user page. Xandar had been editing since early 2004 in the style of a regular contributor. So even before the checkuser was requested I mentioned to Akhilleus that I doubted these two were the same person. Durova 02:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm Akhilleus, the user who placed the Checkuser request. I initially suspected Xandar of being a sockpuppet, but for the reasons stated by Durova, I think this was incorrect. (This does not excuse any violations of 3RR or any other policy, of course.) I apologize to Xandar for the mistake.
Because of the Checkuser request I've been looking at this dispute, and (with apologies) I have to say the article is a sorry mess. I don't know anything about the Goa Inquisition, but the article isn't teaching me much. The sources are very poor. The website used in two footnotes, , does't appear to meet WP:RS--it's hosted on a personal website with no indication of the credentials of the author. Another footnote cites a book from 1886, the Imperial Gazetteer--do we really want to use colonial-era sources for this article? The "References" section lists another book from 1890--surely there are more up-to-date biographies of St. Xavier--and also lists the Lonely Planet guide for India, not the first thing I think of when trying to learn about history. There are two modern works, both of which probably meet WP:RS--Rao's Portuguese Rule in Goa and Benton, Lauren A, Law and Colonial Cultures. However, just because something meets WP:RS doesn't mean it's a good source--and this review (P.J. Griffiths, International Affairs 40 (1955), p. 555) suggests that Rao's book isn't that great. It says the book "combines dullness with unlimited prejudice."
Now, I really don't think good sources should be hard to find. The history of Goa, Portuguese colonization, and the Inquisition are all well studied. A good starting point might be The Portuguese in India, by M.N. Pearson (this is a volume in the New Cambridge History of India), and A.K. Priolkar, The Goa Inquisition. I see at some point the page did cite Priolkar, but the citations were removed for some reason. 07:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the apol.net site is wierd. However, the missionary Xandar removed the other refs you said above. Also, many academic refs were cited that were removed by the Christian. Rumpelstiltskin223 07:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not a missionary, nor am I this CC80 person. I just don't want to see wikipedia spreading what is clearly anti-christian propaganda which is being used to stir up hate. Read reputable books about the Inquisition by serious researchers like Kamen, and they show that many of the horror-stories spread about the various inquisitions (that they killed hundreds of thousands or even millions) were massive exaggerations produced for propaganda purposes. people often took the total number of people tried by the Inquisition, and soon that became the number burned at the stake, although only about 2% of inquisition prisoners eneded up being executed. However people raised on such stories often end up wanting to believe them. Believing in thousands of people executed by the Goa Inquisition fills people with more righteous anger than talking about 54. People like big numbers. But if all these killings took place how come they don't know about it in Goa? Let's look for the real truth, not legends. Xandar 15:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a nice bit of Christian terrorist propaganda. Unfortunately, good sources like the Jewish Encyclopedia and Priolkar refute such Southern Baptist rubbish. Rumpelstiltskin223 15:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's clear that these Christian Missionaries are trying to hide the historical atrocities of the inquisition by using various sophisms, false logic, convoluted arguments, and misquotation of sources. They have vandalized this article and have taken some innocent wikipedia administrators for a ride.Then they fill the article up with hate speech against Hindus before getting it "protected". Disgusting. Rumpelstiltskin223 15:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a general warning: Please remember to assume good faith, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that anyone is intentionally harming the encyclopedia, so please give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Please remain civil and do not make any personal attacks. I am monitoring this discussion, and will be handing out 24 hour blocks to anyone violating these guidelines. You have been warned. Keep the discussion about the article, not the editors. --Tango 16:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal

This article has been targeted in recent weeks by CC80, a sockpuppet of the Joan of Arc vandal. This and similar articles may be targeted again by other sockpuppets of the same person.

A vandal who has damaged Misplaced Pages's Catholicism, Christianity, cross-dressing, and homosexuality articles for over two years has been identified and community banned. This person will probably attempt to continue disruption on sockpuppet accounts. Please be alert for suspicious activity. Due to the complexity of this unusual case, the best place to report additional suspicious activity is probably to my user talk page because I was the primary investigating administrator. Durova 17:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

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