Talk:Zhang Zhan - Misplaced Pages

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Sinophobia much?

First, she isn't a journalist, she's a lawyer. Posting videos on twitter does not turn her into a journalist. Second, "tortured"? Shouldn't it be at least "allegedly tortured"?

Could people here stop trying to transform Misplaced Pages in an anticommunist McCarthyist platform and keep their political agendas away from this project? Dornicke (talk) 02:03, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Dunno, Dornicke. 24 hpd in handcuffs & forced feedng sounds like torture, no? And comparsing the article with your "anticommunist McCarthyist platform" leads me to the conclusion that it is you, and not the article, that has a bias issue. On that basis, I'll remove the tag from the article. You could perhaps slap one on your forehead? --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:21, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't recall seeing journalists who received far worse treatment in the US and Europe being labeled as "victims of tortures" for being handcuffed, so I'll revert you. Dornicke (talk) 02:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

At a quick web search, she was referred to as a citizen journalist in headlines by the Guardian, Al Jazeera, NBC, CBS, Times of Israel and Deutsche Welle, and probably many others. The ultimate source of this may be AFP. Since Misplaced Pages merely paraphrases reliable sources, I recommend continuing to refer to her as a (citizen) journalist. I'm not personally sure it's worth debating whether the "citizen" moniker must always be included, but there might be reliable sources that clearly state that citizen journalists aren't journalists. If so, let's see them. Samsara 06:03, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Tagishsimon here, multiple reliable sources indicate that what Zhang Zhan experienced is indeed state torture and it also seems to indicate that she is being subjected to a show trial. But that is just my opinion. Since it is so widely stated in reliable sources that she is a citizen journalist and given that her work seems to meet the definition of citizen journalist I am happy for this article to continue referring to her as such. Samsara is right to point out that that Misplaced Pages is merely, and often does -indeed often should-, paraphrase reliable sources. On the sinophobia accusation, I fail so see how the article (in its current form as of writing this comment) is sinophobic or that people are "trying to transform Misplaced Pages in an anticommunist McCarthyist platform". Perhaps Dornicke could expand on how they believe this article is guilty of that? Covering issues such as this covered by multiple reliable sources, no matter how critical of a government it might be, does not equate to sinophobia (or any other type of prejudicial bias). --Discott (talk) 11:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems to be consensus that she is a citizen journalist so I will amend 'amateur journalist' (not sure what that means anyway), I think it is important to make clear she is not a professional journalist. 51.6.235.99 (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

It appears that several editors here are not familiar with the relevant Misplaced Pages policies, in particular WP:NPOV and WP:V. If an editor's personal beliefs or opinions diverge from what reliable sources state, we still go with the latter. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Torture

I have removed 'alleged' from the information on torture, there are now multiple reliable sources saying she has been tortured and describing the nature of the multiple methods of torture; prolonged use of handcuffs and other restraints and prolonged force feeding. John Cummings (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I've also added the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment as a reference, her treatment fits with the definition:

1) intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering; 2) for a specific purpose, such as to obtain information, as punishment, or to intimidate, or for any reason based on discrimination; and, 3) by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of State authorities.

John Cummings (talk) 15:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Just a note that I've removed this link as well as "Torture methods in the People's Republic of China". {{cite web}}: Text "access-2020-12-29" ignored (help) (not sure if you added the latter or someone else did), since basing claims about a specific case on these refs would be WP:SYNTH. This shouldn't affect the article as the relevant sections were already sourced adequately. Pieceofmetalwork (talk) 18:42, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

An IP editor has been edit warring on the page, I've explained multiple times to discuss the issue here which they do not appear to be interested in doing, I've requested that they be blocked at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. John Cummings (talk) 17:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. You can not say she was tortured just because you cherrypicked sources that say so. Most reliable sources are using "allegedly tortured", and even if it wasn't the case, WP should anyway, because that's an allegation by her and her lawyer, not a proven fact. You do not endorse information which is not consensual as if it was, unless you intend to write a propaganda piece in favor of proving a point - not informing the readers. Dornicke (talk) 17:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Dornicke:, I think the issue is the lack of clarity about what alleged means:

That it is alleged that she has been handcuffed and forcefed for months?
That she has been handcuffed and forcefed for months and it is alleged that this is torture?

Which do you mean when you are saying alleged?

John Cummings (talk) 17:41, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

1.it needs to be proven if these events actually took place.

2. If alleged events actually happened did it constitute torture in accordance to the UN human rights council SaSSurvival (talk) 22:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Trial and sentencing

It seems like the charges section is getting a bit confusing, it might be helpful to have it as a full list of charges and which she was found guilty of. John Cummings (talk) 15:08, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

This might help: https://mobile.twitter.com/skkboz/status/1343575199384420352 This Twitter thread and video has some of the offences that amount to "provoking trouble", such as harassing police/frontline workers, breach of privacy (videoing into hospital windows), public disorder (kicking over police barriers), etc.

Original source is her YouTube channel 2A00:23C7:C005:4300:4DC8:A8E5:4E94:FCCE (talk) 15:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

To explain how Misplaced Pages works, personal Twitter accounts (especially ones which spread conspiracy theories) aren't Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources so aren't used on Misplaced Pages. John Cummings (talk) 16:13, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

How about her YouTube as a source then. Here is her harassing police and kicking over a barrier:

https://youtube/qQu14MMbANU

This is the YouTube content that has apparently made her a "citizen journalist" so I assume it's a valid source?

2A00:23C7:C005:4300:4DC8:A8E5:4E94:FCCE (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Please have a read of Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources which describes which are valid sources for Misplaced Pages. Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 00:23, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Source for "lawyer", when did she graduate university.

When did she graduate university. How/when did she become a "lawyer"? Keith McClary (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Beginning of the hunger strike

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Zhang Zhan. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

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The page states: "Zhan has been on hunger strike since September 2020". However, according to the reference 11 (CBS news) she has begun her hunger strike at the end of June. Other provided references (10 and 12) do not contain information about the starting date of her hunger strike. Could it be corrected, please?--Owleksandra (talk) 13:45, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

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