Talk:Skanderbeg - Misplaced Pages

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian? A1: Yes, Skanderbeg was an Albanian feudal lord from the Albanian House of Kastrioti. Q2: What language did they speak in Albania during Skanderbeg's lifetime? A2: Skanderbeg's native language was Albanian. In the Balkans Italian, Greek, Vlach, Latin, South Slavic languages and Ottoman Turkish were also common during Skanderbeg's lifetime. Q3: What was the background of Skanderbeg's mother? A3: Primary sources refer to her as being from Polog, most likely being the Polog valley in modern day North Macedonia. It has also been argued that another Polog, closer to the town of Bitola in the plain of Pelagonia may be the location of the Polog mentioned by Barleti. There is debate among different scholars of whether Skanderbeg's mother was related to the Muzaka family, most likely of Albanian descent, or of the Serb Branković dynasty, or of an unknown Bulgarian family. There is, however, no mention of Voisava on the Branković dynasty family tree. Q4: Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic? A4: Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was a Roman Catholic in the period from 1444 to his death in 1468. In the period prior to 1444, he had converted to Islam. The exact date of his conversion is unclear but it must have been between 1426 and 1431. His father, Gjon Kastrioti changed his religion several times (Roman Catholic/Christian Orthodox/Muslim). Q5: What was Skanderbeg's real name and who were his parents? A5: His real name was Gjergj Kastrioti, Gjergj is the Albanian version of the name George. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother's name was Voisava Kastrioti

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Skanderbeg origin, sources

Ever since a group of pro-Albanian editors took control over the article against Misplaced Pages:OWN, other editors have been strugling to edit and expand the article. Instances of such behavior can be observed in their inflexibility to accept changes backed by Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. The problem is even greater giving the fact that the vesion they wrote and they prevent editors from changing or expanding, is unsouced. For someone fom outside things may not be clear, but, we are facing clear Albanian-POV pushing in which they tend to marginalise and gather all together all different theories of Skanderbeg origin, that way discrediting them all.

This revert is absolutelly unecceptable. Not only restores an unsourced claim (not even one source claims Skanderbeg was "possibly of Serbian or Bulgaian origin") but also prevents expanding each claim by itself.

Another, quite contentious aspect, is their addition of "possibly",. which is wrong, because most sources, as least for the Serbian origin claim, don´t use the expression of "possibility" neither any other expressing doubts. Lets see some of the sources backing up Skanderbegs Serbian origin theory:

A History of Montenegro by Francis Stevenson, citarion: "Skanderber himself, as has been seen - Skanderbergthe national hero of the Albanians, was of Serb origin."

Theodore Spandounes: On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors, Pages 133-261 by Theodōros Spandouginos, page 47. Citation: "For some years it has been ruled by by Skanderbeg, a most valiant man of Serbian oigin."]

Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, citation: "This force was led by John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin, and whose son, Skenderbeg, was venerated by Albanians at the time were Christian and their solidarity with the Serbs was not difficult to comprehend."

What can Germans and French learn from Serbs and Albanians? by balcanicaucaso.org, citation: " Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero, is the perfect example of this – his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin; his older brother was Sinisha, which is a Serbian or, to be more accurate, Slavic name."

HONOR and HEROISM by Marko Miljanov Popovich, page 59, citation: "George Kastriota (Skanderbeg), (1404–1468) an Orthodox Christian ruler of Albania. His father, John Kastriota (of the Serbian origin), led the..."

Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge by Walter Yust, 1952, page 762, citation: "(Skanderbeg) out wearing a royal crown, was of Serbian origin. The founder of the family of Castriota was a certan Branilo, who was governor of Kanina in 1368, and whose gandson, Giovani lord of Mat and Vumenestia, married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate."

The encyclopedia Americana - Volume 8; Volume 24 - Page 878, pblished 1998, citation: "...son of John Kastrioti (Castriota), a high official of Serbian origin, and his given name was George."

These are just some of the first results I am finding and all in English. Would you now be kind and revert yourself so we can properly expand Serbian origin part? FkpCascais (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

ok FkpCascais once again Spandouginos is wp:primary and so is Miljanov. Both sources are old with the first being some 500 years old and the second over a hundred years old. In those cases WP:AGEMATTERS. Britannica and Americana are wp:tertiary etc and most articles contain content based on wp:secondary. Please this is not some thing about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.Resnjari (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

How is that Spandouginos is primary source? I don´t see at his book any citation quotes which would means he is refering to some old text of someone elses words. About the rest, in one way or another, they do say the same, which is Skanderbeg has Serbian origin. We are not strict to use just nowadays sources. Anyway, I will keep on bringing sources. FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Going by your comment I'm getting this vibe that you haven't had a good look at some of the sources your using. With Spandouginos, p.iii.. Its clearly stated its a translation of a text from some 500 years ago etc. Please desist for the time being as your going into wp:BATTLEGROUND territory.Resnjari (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

More sources:

Croatia: Ludwig von Gaj and the Croats are Herrenvolk Goths Syndrome by Ivo Vukcevich, page 246, citation: "According to some sources, great-grandfather, Branilo Castriot, was a Serb (dórigine Serbe) in the company of Serbs. .... It is a matter of record that thee Castrior estates in Albania can be traced to Skanderbeg´s gandfather , Pal, who receved his estates from Serbian Emperir Dushan in 1345."

Mu friend, I am adding sourced material which is missing. I will bring much more. FkpCascais (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais your just confriming more and more that your not having a proper look the sources your using. Your latest addition based on Ivo Vukcevich is a self published source (WP:RSSELF) done through Xlibris. Misplaced Pages does not allow for use of publications that are self published.Resnjari (talk) 22:54, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Le Kossovo de l'absolu by Komnen Bećirović, pages 8, 9, citation:"... sur le origine serbe de George Castriote, dit Skanderbeg,..." FkpCascais (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm very concerned on the way your going about things here. Editors have expressed multiple concerns with the sources used, and you have repeatedly put them back and then added more problematic sources into the article. Please desist. The editing is going into WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and wp:BATTLEGROUND territory. I have engaged you in good faith and its very disappointing seeing all this.Resnjari (talk) 23:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I am also very concern that what you call "editors" is just the 3 of you Albanians who happened team-tag and OWN articles. It is time to end this. I will keep on bringing sources cause WP:RS and WP:Verifiability is all that matters. FkpCascais (talk) 23:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais again why are you resorting to personal attacks. Whatever a person's ethnic heritage or origin maybe that should not be part of any discussion here. Please stop with this. Show good faith.Resnjari (talk) 23:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

At begining I had all good-faith, also because I have great Albanian friends in personal life. But you make me loose it when I see that here at Misplaced Pages tha tactic that you use is to make endless objections at talk-page in order to leave some info you dislike out of the article. You tried to disrgard Skandebeg Serbian origin theories by minimasing them and equalising them to some considerably lower in impotance origin theories such as the Bulgarian one. You should have shown good-faith when I asked you to respect WP rules and separate the two claims cause no source claimed both simultaneously, while all claim either one or another, You did it to prevent expanding the Serbian origin claim, as you still do. And, as you can see, there are plenty of sources for it. FkpCascais (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais how many Albanian friends you have is not something that any editor asked you and not a concern here. What is a concern is that you have rammed your edits into the article showing clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior when multiple concerns were raised by other editors about the sources you have used and the way you have gone about things. Its disappointing.Resnjari (talk) 23:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I also don´t care if you are disapointed or what, all I want is for us to make the best possible article based on reliable sources. FkpCascais (talk) 23:55, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, good. So show good faith and revert your additions that you have no consensus for and also use sources are problematic.Resnjari (talk) 00:02, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

No, this state of article is certainly better than the previous, because the previous edit was unsourced and indicated total undue-weight regading the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. I asked Deb for a sugestion, lets, wait. FkpCascais (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, your just showing more wp:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Again disappointing.Resnjari (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (history): to weight different views and structure an article so as to avoid original research and synthesis the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:

Recent scholarly books and chapters on the historiography of the topic
"Review Articles", or historiographical essays that explicitly discuss recent scholarship in an area.
Similarly conference papers that were peer reviewed in full before publication that are field reviews or have as their central argument the historiography
Journal articles or peer reviewed conference papers that open with a review of the historiography etc.

Per above mentioned classification: Robert Elsie, who is an expert of Albanian issues claims in his Historical Dictionary of Albania, Volume 75 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Second edition, published by Academic publisher Scarecrow Press, recently (2010), ISBN 081087380X, p. 398 in the article on Skanderbeg himself:

Albanian prince and national hero. The real name of Scanderbeg (Alb. Skenderbej, def. Skenderbeu) was George Castriotta (Alb. Gjergj Kastrioti). George Castriotta came from a family of landowners from the Dibra region in northeastern Albania, who were no doubt of mixed Albanian-Slavic ancestry.

That is NPOV and meets the criteria above. Jingiby (talk) 07:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that the ammount of sources claiming Serbian (not generalistically "Slavic") ancestry is so significant that clearly deserves a mention. FkpCascais (talk) 09:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

FkpCascais, I have checked the first 3 of them. The first one is called "A History of Montenegro" by Francis Stevenson. It was published for the first time more then 100 years ago and is out of date, i.e. not reliable source. The second book is written by Theodore Spandounes: "On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors". Spandounes died in 1538, i.e. this book is totally out of date. The third one is the only reliable source: "Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies" by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, and claims Kastrioti was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin, that is as a whole in accordance with the article. Jingiby (talk) 10:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. What about the others? FkpCascais (talk) 10:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, FkpCascais. The next 3 sources are: 1. What can Germans and French learn from Serbs and Albanians? by Aleksandar Pavlović, published on the research on-line magazine called OBC Transeuropa, i.e. it is reliable at some degree. It claims: Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero... his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin; Simply the mixed origins story is confirmed. 2. HONOR and HEROISM by Marko Miljanov, who died on February 2, 1901. He is a Serbian author and the book was simply translated in English. I would say, it is somehow biased source, and out of date, i.e. not reliable. 3. Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge by Walter Yust, 1952 edition. This source confirms the thesis on the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. Nevertheless it is ca. 70 years old, that means this publication does not meet the criteria on recent scholarship mentioned above. Jingiby (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Can I suggest that a RfC is opened here. It pretty much looks there will be a snow closure, so this might be the simplest way to resolve this.Bilseric (talk) 11:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Its time to revert to the stable version of the article before all the events of the past 24 hours. After that a discussion can resume about these things hopefully this time in good faith by all editors. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:28, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

It's obvious that an essential part from the Myth of Skanderbeg belongs to this article. I wonder why there is nothing in here yet. FkpCascais Jingiby Resnjari Antidiskriminator suggestions?Alexikoua (talk) 21:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Do not ping FkpCascais as he is topic-banned. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua, unless this discussion is about a merger of the Myth of Skanderbeg article into this one (and deletion of that article), we ain't creating forks all over the place. Also pinging Calthinus and Ktrimi991 as they have been involved in the editing of this article. And do take @Ktrimi991's advice, don't ping topic banned editors, as they got themselves into enough trouble as it is with this page. They have had enough excitement for the day.Resnjari (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I see no consensus on the view of a "pure Albanian" in the LEAD. After all, how can a person be just "Albanian" when his mother is not, at a time that "Albanian" was not an official nationality, and when he never claimed that he is of certain ethnicity? I think the LEAD should reflect modern views on the man.--Skylax30 (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Skylax30, Albanian was an official nationality in the same sense Serbian, Bulgarian or Hungarian was, there is enough documentation available that proves the existence of an Albanian "race", distinctive from that of its neighbors. The point you're trying to make is that the page should list him as half-serbian only because his mother might, and emphasis on might, have been of Serbian origin. Now, matter of fact is that in medieval time ancestry was determined solely by the paternal lineage, that is by the lineage of the father which we know is up for debate as well since Greeks and Serbs oh so love appropriation, but we will take as Albanian. The existence of an Albanian national consciousness, as well as Skanderbeg's self-identification as Albanian in the letter he sent to Giovanni Orsini, the Prince of Taranto, make it abundantly clear than his "serbian" side had little to no basis. These absolutely clear chauvinistic approaches to the question at hand, and the appropriation of history by the Serbs (which is as pathetic as listing Skanderbeg as a "pure Serb" in the Serbian wikipedia and holding it as a featured article) has no place on wikipedia and the renegades that sullen this site should all be blocked permanently. ArdenDem (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

History has progressed a lot in the rest of the world. Shinasi Rama (2019): " intellectuals argued that Skanderbeg had done everything to save his nation and his people and, in his case, ethnicity and loyalty to the Albanian nation (that, of course, did not exist in the fifteenth century) had overriden loyalty to religion or self-interest." (in "Nation Failure, Ethnic Elites, and Balance of Power". Berlin, Springer, ISBN 978-3-030-05191-4. p. 94). Let's see if this article can catch up.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

When we refer to him as Albanian we mean Arbanian just like the previous Principality of Arbanon and Muzaka,Topia,Gropa Family. If having orthodox names means that you are Slav might as well make every Medieval Albanian a Slav and erase all our heritage and language and call it a day. The Main Facts are from Marinus Barletti and Giovanni Musachi, so it can never be "called myth or propaganda" . On the Serbian Wiki Page it says that Skanderbeg is Serbian which Albanians claimed as their own which is fake and a Violation of what Misplaced Pages stands for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denissaliaj (talk • contribs) 10:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

he was sent to the Ottoman court as part of the Devshirme

No. He was taken to the Ottoman court as a hostage. There exists great difference between hostage and devshirme.--Удивленный1 (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Good point. I will replace devshirme with hostage.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Debunking serbian theory

The serbian theory is based only in the fact that Kastrioti family had Slavic names forgetting that those names are purely orthodox and its a period after Dusan's Empire. Also i saw other claim that Kastrioti got Fiefs from Dusan's Empire forgetting that this does not mean they are serbs. To be clear once and for all. All the family was albanian and had orthodox names just like many albanians. John Kastrioti bought the tower in Hilandar as its sacred for christians and the name of the tower was Albanski Pirg called that by serbian monks themselves. John Muzaka is the first one to write about vojsava last name which was Tipalda and she was from Pollog a region even today inhabited by albanians and one of the regions where other confirmed albanian families were from like Gropa Noble House. John Muzaka wrote the book in 1510 and were memoirs from his father who fought alongside skanderbeg from the Noble Muzaka Family. Other members of the family were named Jela Angjelina just like skanderbeg sisters so this means those names are purely orthodox and Albanian. Because those were the common balkanic names after Dusan's empire. There are real time documents and im naming u barletti's and muzaka's mentionin many albanians with the name stanisha paul gion/giovanni/iuvan that are confirmed to be albanians(by mentioning the fact that they are not slavic) those are common orthodox names that orthodox albanians still use today. Names given by the church. And kastrioti were lords of mat which is one of the first autonomous albanian cities since arbanon principality 240 years before skanderbeg, so they were not surrounded by slavs even in dusan's empire this area was controlled by confirmed Albanian prince Karl Topia from the famous Topia Family. im saying are christian first not slavic names not everything thats slavs use are slavic. Anyway the moral of all this conversation it was that Skanderbeg Lord of Albania was Albanian as documented by both Barletti and Musachio. Arberesh people left albania when Skanderbeg died and still today they speak Albanian. So his family albanian from Mati and Sina. His people albanians. His vassals albanians except Crnojevici who were slavic. His priest Paulus Angelus (Pal Ëngjelli) wrote the earliest albanian baptist verse. "Une te paghesont nperemen te atit birit e spirtit seinjt" at the time when skanderbeg was still alive. Serbian side of the theory is in the names Jovan(which is used only on slavic versions) like Gion & Giovanni in the latin ones and there were many Gions in Albanian Noble Families. Just like Many Maras Jelas and Angelinas. Denissaliaj (talk) 20:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Denissaliaj: Many articles about the Kastrioti family are very flawed, from bad use of bibliography to political talking points. What should replace them needs to be correct, not equally flawed but ideologically pleasing. What specific changes would you make based on your overview of bibliography?--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Should this article be more about the historical figure and less about Albanian national myth making?

This is a well researched article but it fails to be objective about the historical figure and is written within the Albanian myth making tradition. The majority of the sources come from the national awakening and communist era or later authors who relied heavily on those works, which were written to foster Albanian national unity and national myth making. The article does not include anything from the Italian, Serbian or Greek writers, there is a long list of 19th century Greek literature which is ignored. The article is also biased and selective in its facts, any evidence non-conforming to the Albanian myth-making perspective is ignored, whilst even the smallest conforming evidence is disproportionately highlighted. I am not interested in national myth making but the real historical figure - in this regard the article fails.

Skanderbeg’s identity is disputed, which is understandable when you try to project modern national identities to historical figures who lived in a different time. This article should say he was a Byzantine nobleman, also why is he’s name written in the modern Albanian Language? He would have used the Greek language in his life time, both his names have Greek etymology, why not use Greek which would be the lingua franca of his region during that time.

Is there willingness to move towards a historically accurate Georgi Kastrioti, the Byzantine nobleman who fought the Ottoman Empire Misplaced Pages page which includes references from non-Albanian sources or are we happy to stay with the current Albanian myth-making figure Skanderbeg page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.197.202.179 (talk) 00:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

There are no sources that name Skanderbeg or Kastrioti Family as "Byzantine" if you want the truth this is the truth as mythical as it may look to you. Denissaliaj (talk) 16:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

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