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Revision as of 22:25, 12 November 2004

"Recognized authority" on the Congo? That means at least one professional historian has, in print, said that his work should be taken as authoritative. I have yet to see such a statement myself. So what's the basis for this claim? Stan 16:03, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Do you monitor my edit history? I can hardly imagine another reason for your finding this article within an hour or so of its creation.

You say you've never seen a citation of Martens as an authority on the Congo? I take it you're well versed in the French-language literature on the subject of Congolese political history?

I don't accept your assertion that some "professional historian" must write "Martens is an authority on the Congo" for it to be true. He has written numerous books on the subject, some of which I have listed here, not to mention countless articles over the past thirty years. He is widely interviewed, within the Congo and without, and frequently appears on television and at international conferences as an invited speaker. His work is of a uniformly high quality and deserves better than to be sneered at by someone who obviously hasn't read it. Shorne 18:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As part of my admin-ly duties, I monitor "new pages", once in the morning and once in the evening - imagine my pleasure at seeing a nice start on an articleworthy person, since I was expecting to have to do it myself. But "recognized authority" is a pretty big claim, more so than something like "expert" or "specialist"; as someone who has been energetic in criticizing people for not providing proofs for their assertions, it was a little surprising to see you say something like this without providing any facts in support. Since the rest of us are not well-versed in the Congo literature, we're dependent on you (who presumably is) to provide the evidence of Martens' leading position. Poking through Martens' rather paltry number of Google hits, I saw lots of copies of his Stalin book, and lots of addresses to party congresses, but not much else. Sheer number of books and articles is not particularly meaningful, since anybody can run a printing press, and television, well, all the rightwingers you despise make television appearances too. What counts among scholars is peer review; who are Martens' peers, and how do they rate him? What about his day job anyway? Was he ever a professor? You've got a start, but there are lots of questions I'm terribly curious about! Stan 20:22, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thousands upon thousands of hits is paltry? Martens is most certainly a "recognized authority," whether he is a leading authority is another question altogether. That said, I see nothing wrong with your request for this to be better qualified. Allow me to provide the discussion with some cursory aid on this front:

According to Ludo Martens, (Chairman of Belgium's Labour Party who is thoroughly familiar with Congolese problems)... (The Guardian, 7 February, 2001) El_C

As an example of what I'm talking about, think of Crawford Young, who seems to be an acknowledged authority on the Congo - the blurb for his lecture at Copenhagen's Center for African Studies says he "stands out as the leading and most influential political scientist working on African politics" , and there are dozens of other such statements by people in the scholarly community. Stan 20:53, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's peculiar that you raised the issue of a "paltry number of Google hits" for Martens. The number of hits for "Ludo Martens" is 7810. For "Crawford Young", it is 8170—but the majority of those seem to be about a guitarist or other person by that name. I'm sure Mr Young is very worthy, but it would seem that he loses—or should I say you lose?—on the count of Google hits.

The book Zaire: A country study, funded by the US Department of the Army (and thus most unlikely to teem with left-wing propaganda), uses both Martens and Young as sources.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you over the relative merits of historians whose names you saw in two minutes of searching on Google. You are being petty and ridiculous. I've already said what makes Martens an authority on the Congo. Some of his books are pretty much the only literature on their subjects (aspects of Congolese politics over the past few decades).

If you're so curious about Martens's personal life, why don't you write to him? His e-mail address is no secret; you can even find it on Google. I have no idea whether he'll entertain nosy questions—I certainly won't—, but you can always try. As for his "day job", I think I stated pretty clearly in the article that he is a historian and the chairman of a political party. That's enough to occupy even an especially capable person. What with those two jobs and the associated responsibilities, such as frequent interviews and talks given at conferences around the world (not just party congresses, as you inaccurately stated), he probably doesn't have much time left to install drywall or sell vacuum cleaners door to door.

To conclude, no, I'm not well versed on the Congo or most other parts of Africa. (Nor am I utterly ignorant of them. I'm sure I know a damn sight more about them than most Wikipedians do.) Indeed, my relative lack of knowledge of Africa is one reason for my recent work in creating articles on African writers for List of African writers (by country). (If you've been monitoring the new articles, you will have noticed my contributions in this area.) I've learnt a fair amount in researching certain authors, and I even intend to get hold of a few books by some of them. Far be it from my intention to force an agenda upon you, but may I suggest that the time that you invest in writing long screeds to destroy the reputation of an author you have not even read might be more profitably invested in creating articles on a few African writers? Shorne 22:25, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)