Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:26, 20 February 2008

To-do list for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2014-05-29 Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks view watch edit history shell vg talk alerts purge AfDs Tetr.io (5 participants) Benedikt Johannes Hofer (2 participants) Untitled Minecraft spiritual successor (20 participants) RealFlight (1 participant) Gameplay of Dragon Quest (7 participants) Rainbow Computing (2 participants) Nebulae (video game) (2 participants) Star Wars Republic Commando (series) (1 participant) Clare Siobhan (1 participant) Double Fine Comics (1 participant; relisted) Westballz (2 participants; relisted) List of Pokémon volumes (3 participants; relisted) Merge discussions Console game (discussion) Atari Interactive (discussion) Nintendo DS Lite (discussion) Pokémon Essentials (discussion) Input lag (discussion) Neo Geo Pocket (discussion) Minecraft – Volume Beta (discussion) Other discussions No major discussions Featured content candidates Bejeweled (video game) (nom) Chris Redfield (nom) List of generation II Pokémon (nom) Kim Kitsuragi (nom) Good article nominations River Raid (nom) Dendy (start) Dark Urge (start) Jeanette Voerman (start) Deathloop (start) Ridley (Metroid) (start) Blast Wind (start) Project Zero 2: Wii Edition (start) Barry Burton (start) Sea of Stars (start) Pokémon Stadium (nom) Otogirisō (start) Schim (nom) Bit Pilot (start) Tom Clancy's The Division 2 (start) Gardevoir (start) Cybermania '94 (start) Berzerk (video game) (start) Frostpunk (start) Shiny Pokémon (nom) Cry of Fear (nom) Moida Mansion (start) Aperture Desk Job (nom) A Space for the Unbound (start) The Sims: Livin' Large (start) DYK nominations Sun Haven Reviews and reassessments The Legend of Dragoon (rev) Appy Awards Anarchy Online (nom) Deus Ex (video game) (nom) List of major Super Smash Bros. Ultimate tournaments Articles that need... assessment (2) (0) reassessment (0) cleanup (4) infoboxes (8) cover art (249) screenshots (9,014) photos (72) translation from japan (187) creation merging

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VG Assessment category

There's a lot of things in Category:Unassessed video game articles that are in fact assessed with WP:VG. What is the problem here? User:Krator (t c) 14:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have an example? Anomie⚔ 14:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There's now only four articles in the category. At the time of the post above, this was about a hundred. Seems something got fixed :) User:Krator (t c) 20:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I did a lot of that. I assessed about 60 articles in a 4-hour stint and someone else took care of the rest. I'm working on assessment and other stuff at WikiProject Sega now, but I am glad I could help out this project. Redphoenix526 (talk) 18:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Creating a new Task Force

Who/where do I need to ask to get a Task Force created? I want to create a Bemani Task Force, regarding all Konami made music video games that fall under the Bemani series (And a few outside of it). Is it a vote? Do I just create the page myself? What's the lowdown? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Propose it here (best to create a prototype in your userspace), and if there is consensus here (not a vote) that it's a good idea, then we'll implement it. JACOPLANE • 2008-01-30 20:30

Note that "consensus here" is less scary than it sounds :) User:Krator (t c) 20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess I've proposed it then. But why do I need to create a preemptive project page? Do I need to 'sell' the idea to the people of WikiProject VG? There was once a Konami Task Force, they fell off the grid. I want to create a Task Force focused on Konami's music video game department as that's a major project all by itself. My recent edits to the pages have spurred a couple other people to start making regular improvements so it would be nice to have a centralized place for us and future editors to collaborate our efforts. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 21:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Peeps interested in this task force may proceed to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Taskforce_for_Bemani

APPLICATIONS ARE OPEN (: Fireblaster lyz (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Characters in the Virtua Fighter series

While looking at Virtua Fighter (series), I noticed that every character thats ever made an appearance has their own articles. In all honesty, I don't really think the game is important enough to have a page for every character. I mean, all the pages are are a rundown of their past and a trivia section, and most, if not all of them, don't site any references or have any real-world info. I think they might even fall under WP:NOT#GUIDE. I'd suggest merging the articles into either Virtua Fighter (series) or List of Virtua Figther Characters. The articles in question are:

• Akira Yuki
• Pai Chan
• Jeffry McWild
• Aoi Umenokouji
• Lion Rafale
• Sarah Bryant (Virtua Fighter)
• Shun Di
• Goh Hinogami
• Lau Chan
• Lei-Fei
• Brad Burns
• Kage-Maru
• Wolf Hawkfield
• Jacky Bryant
• Vanessa Lewis
• Dural (Virtua Fighter)
• El Blaze
• Eileen (Virtua Fighter)

Just thought I'd see what you'd all think about this. Dengarde ► Complaints 07:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

If any substantial real-world information can be found, they could be merged into a Characters in the Virtua Fighter series or List of Virtua Fighter characters or whatever, else they can probably be covered in very short sections in the individual game articles. -- Sabre (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as these currently are nothing more than plot summaries, I would say that redirecting all of them to the main article would be best. If we want, we can also merge each section to its respective game under a plot section, and just place a cleanup tag. TTN (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

For once, I agree with you. Since they're really just plot summaries, I'd go with either merging the summaries of all five games to their respective articles, or merging them all into one. Having a page for every one of them is extremely unnecessary. Dengarde ► Complaints 21:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep all as individual articles as they concern notable elements from notable series with many editors willing to work on and many readers interested in their content. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 23:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is it that makes them so notable? Like I said, all the articles are doing is summing up the plot, which can be easily done is the game articles themselves. Theres no need to have them all as individual articles. Dengarde ► Complaints 21:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

They are familiar to millions of game players around the world, appear in notable games, appear in notable secondary source magazine publications, strategy guides, etc. Thus, they have notability to millions of people in the real world with reliable sources readily available for them. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Every character in every fighting game has received a similar treatment. Cleaning them up would be a massive project, with a great deal of resistance from fans.

As usual. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been able to remove the minor ones pretty easily. The only ones that'll be really annoying are Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, while the second tier games don't really receive more than the usual fan complaint. TTN (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Make a huge blanket AFD nom of this one. It will pass. User:Krator (t c) 08:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you link to it, please? Dengarde ► Complaints 04:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Do NOT do that. Please do not. People will vote keep on the principle that so many of them should not have been nominated at once. Huge AFDs result in nothing but flared tempers and "no consensus." And AMIB will bring out his TRAINWRECK FROM WHICH NO CONSENSUS CAN EMERGE line and picture if that happens... hbdragon88 (talk) 08:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I really doubt it would pass as myself and others would surely vote keep. Plus we are still attempting to determine if the injunction would prevent such actions now anyway. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

to be honest, this stuff seems pretty harmless. unlike most 'fan' articles it's all well presented, totally objective plot summaries; crucially, there is no subjective matters being discussed without references and no personal opinions or agendas being pushed (although i haven't checked it thoroughly). i'm not opposed to cutting it down and merging it (or deleting it outright), but it seems like a lot of hassle to me Bridies (talk) 01:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog characters

Let's try this again. The current Sonic the Hedgehog characters lists (List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Other characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Other villains in Sonic the Hedgehog (games)) are full of one game characters and other trivial ones. That's all compared to this version, which contains only the recurring characters in a trimmed down state. If people could comment, that would be good. TTN (talk) 23:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

While List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) is likely to be worthy to stay (as a list which Misplaced Pages allows), the other two articles could be merged into the list itself. Much of the two articles' contents are more of description of the character, their abilities, and in-game special bonuses. Little is of real-world development or context. WP:IINFO could be used as a proponent to merge sourced out-of-universe content. Summarized content for recurring characters should be merged as well. The one-off characters could be summarized into individual game articles or thrown away. Jappalang (talk) 11:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

the version that TTN proposes is a mess, and does nothing to serve the subjects of the article, it also removes characters because of their own point of view (not to say anything of TTN's long running drive to condence all articles on one subject, down into one single article), the characters are better served with the two separate articles, and the list should stay just that; a list that connects all Sonic the Hedgehog character articles.com  Doktor  Wilhelm  12:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Care to explain where you got the inference I was supporting TTN's version of changes? Care to explain why the articles should remain the same with respect to policies to improve Misplaced Pages, instead of "TTN is the one who proposeth so we should opposeth"? Jappalang (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question, with a question: Where did I say that I though you were agreeing with TTN? I don't believe that the articles should remain the same, they should be worked, some one-shot chraacters have notability, some don't; some are a foot note, some are a section! I think they should be worked over and references added and the real world needs to creep in (maybe a bit of Character reception could help with that, and there is a lot of notable character reception for the later additions, though it's mostly anger against sega/sonic team), but what I oppose is the use of just one single list, Everything on Misplaced Pages doesn't need to be condenced into one article (besides what TTN and their fellow Deletionist-Mergist-Redirectionist editors wish to do). As I've stated before: "If the articles are merged, it will end up being too long a list, that is one of the rasons it's seperated into Other villains in Sonic the Hedgehog (games) and Other chracters in Sonic the Hedgehog (games), maybe any information from other bit-part character articles could be merged into them two, with the main characters having their own articles, and List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) serving as a bridge between them all!"  Doktor  Wilhelm  00:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

To be blunt, your post is an indented followup to mine, rather than to TTN's original posting, the context of your message will be based off my post. That is where I assumed your mention of TTN's posting as a followup to my opinions rather than as an independent thread. I also requested for policies which support leaving the articles as they are, would improve Misplaced Pages. Our goals are to improve Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, that goal is subjected to the vast variety of individual opinions on what constitutes and improvement, and the laws and regulations which could cripple the efforts of everyone here building up the project to be useful. Hence we have the five pillars as the main 'rules' to build the project on. Under it, it is clearly stated Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate source for information. Including every little creature which ever appeared in any Sonic game, describing its appearance and abilitiies in detail, and ascribing their cameos as background characters or one-off appearances in other games, and such is violating that spirit. It is in this spirit (as well as the verifiability policy) that articles are best composed of sourced real-world information, especially with regards to fiction. As stated, the current articles massively fail in this aspect. There is no loss in quality to the articles if my suggestions above are taken, in regards to Misplaced Pages policies. In short, trim all three articles, merge them together into a list with sourced information. That is an improvement. Readers are able to find development information, what affected development of Sonic games' characters, and what is the impact of these characters on the gaming industry, players or communities, in one single article. If sourced information for these are major enough to split into separate articles, then it is a given for us to do so, but the current articles do not qualify as such. Deletionist-Mergist-Redirectionist are only approaches of Misplaced Pages editing, and are not policies. Jappalang (talk) 09:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

While I do agree that the amount of unsourced information is a little ridiculous, I don't think trimming the articles and merging them is the right approach. Sure, it would be a step in the right direction, but it may leave out other characters with notability that may be present but not well established. Allow me to make this suggestion then: find someone to find sources or do it yourself. If it is the sourcing that is the main concern, then I don't see why merging is necessary. This is the Internet, after all, and there should be plenty of stuff about most topics period. Unfortunately, I cannot help with searching for sources as I am busy all the time, or I would do it myself. Now, if notability cannot be established (not HAS NOT BEEN established, CANNOT BE established) on most of the content, then I'm all for the merge. But until then, it makes more sense to just find sources and establish notability. Don't get rid of something if it's worthy of note, a philosophy I hold true in my edits. Redphoenix526 (talk) 15:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much all of the characters within the lists appear in one game each. None of them require any coverage outside of the single game, and if by some chance there is actual relevant information, it belongs in the game article. The version that I list up above shows the characters that actually need coverage, and that'll likely have some relevant information on them.TTN (talk) 16:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Normally I would keep an open mind and put full consideration into this proposal, or at least let it be done temporarily to see if it better fits Misplaced Pages before taking a position, but I am extremely bothered by TTN's actions. After taking unilateral action without discussion in doing a major edit, TTN engaged in an edit war to keep those changes. Upon failing that, the editor finally began a merge discussion and failed to gain a consensus. Now, less than one month later, TTN reopens this discussion here, without any notice on any of the affected articles (the only notice came several days later by another editor). At best this editor's actions are plain sneaky; at worst TTN has ignored several WP rules and etiquettes in a quest to champion others. Cigraphix (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If it were possible to obtain an actual consensus, I would have tried. The problem is that the articles are dominated by fans that care more about presenting the information that they're interested in rather than encyclopedic information. That does not allow for discussion based upon policies and guidelines, only fan banter. The only way to get anything done is to either try with force or gain a number consensus. Plan A didn't work, and for some reason, the people here are too busy to write two sentences backing this suggestion or some variation of it. And why do people let actions that they find bad sway them from a valid suggestion? They have absolutely no connection with each other. 65.175.147.249 (talk) 16:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, that's me. TTN (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Your actions are important as they establish your crediblity. It seems like you have been selectively ignoring rules that don't suit your needs (it looked like you were edit warring at one point, and your renominating right after a previous nomination seems to bring up problems with both #4 and 6 in Misplaced Pages:POINT#Gaming_the_system) while portraying yourself as a champion of the rules. Also coming to some distant page to reopen the discussion without putting any notice on the pages most affected by it was a sneaky, underhanded tactic. This has drawn parallels in my mind to President Bush: he may have been well intended but he seemed to think only his interpretations of the rules were right, chose to follow only the rules that suited him, used sneaky tactics, and ruthlessly crushed any resistance, and now his actions seem to have politically castrated himself and he now seems to be a pariah within his own party. Misplaced Pages may not place emphasis on one's credibilty, but it still matters when one makes an arguement. If you really are just a cynical editor who expects to have to fight narrow-minded fanboys, you should try to at least begin your crusades by forcing yourself to respect the work of others and assume your fellow Wikipedians are reasonable. Discuss such big changes first, then, if you are hitting a brick wall but are still convinced you are right, Misplaced Pages has provided tools to get around stonewallers. Even the threat of using said tools could create progress and compromise. And if you feel a discussion would be better served on another page, you should provide notice and a link on the pages involved. Cigraphix (talk) 21:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Cigraphix, your words are commendable, and more Wikipedians should have the mindset they display. I think, however, that your reasoning does not apply here. Let's call a spade a spade, and properly examine the discussion process TTN is describing above. You will find out the discussion is indeed between (mostly) narrow-minded fanboys and TTN, and some rare allies.

I agree that it is important to assume good faith, but keep in mind that TTN has had more than a few of these discussions: a few hundred, probably. With that kind experience, I trust that he has gained some insights in what motivates the other side of the conflict. And TTN, for what's it worth, one can indeed blame the anonymous well-reasoning Wikipedian for not dropping by every once in a while to endorse your message. This drags discussions on for longer, and makes them more uncivil as well. So, for what it's worth: I, Krator, endorse TTN. I hope it will make a difference in the severity of the discussions. Maybe if twenty-ish people do so, it will. User:Krator (t c) 21:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that sums it up. While I guess I come off as hating discussion, I just hate obsessive fans who do not understand/ignore the true purpose of this site, wikilawyering, "filibustering", the same old, tired, pointless arguments, consensus based upon how many people show up, and anything else that makes rational discussion impossible. And while we say that we have this whole great dispute resolution system, there is no relevant place for this kind of stuff, unless you feel like having every discussion lasting three months (I can list the problems with each one of them). The only actual way to get past all that is to either have more people than them or outlast them, neither of which are working in this case. TTN (talk) 16:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

TTN, after taking another look at all this stuff, I have to say (and I know Doktor Wilhelm's probably going to kill me for this in The Sega Project) I don't think this idea of yours is too bad at all, but the version you put up is so far scaled back as to be ridiculous. I took a look at the version you put up for discussion, and it looks like a lot of the information from the other pages about characters you kept has been really trimmed back. If this is to be the pages where these characters appear, then I think all of the information from the corresponding merger pages (as well as the images of each of those characters) needs to move over, too. Also, I think minor one-game characters from some of the later games (such as Sonic Rush Adventure, for example) should slide over, too, because we don't know if they may appear again (it's a safer bet against older one-gamers). I'll be honest, I though Silver the Hedgehog was a one-and-done, but obviously that wasn't the case. Finally, I saw that note on the suggested merge of even more articles into this list (of individual characters from the merger box) like Blaze the Cat, and I disagree with those. Those characters are major characters that have taken on larger roles and are notable enough for their own separate articles. So I'd say your version needs some cleanup to be a practical idea, but when does something on Misplaced Pages not need cleanup? Most things do. I can't support your idea until this information is integrated and cleaned up. Redphoenix526 (talk) 17:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The version that I created certainly isn't the limit for the entries, but the information that was salvaged was the only relevant information available in the entries. They're just bloated up with OR, unneeded plot summaries, unneeded descriptions, unneeded pieces of trivia, and some other minor things. The information would be cut either way. Any other characters that weren't brought over only appear in one game, so they belong in their main articles. TTN (talk) 19:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It just seemed a little thin, that's all. Even if we keep the original, it probably needs to be beefed up anyway with citable, relevant material. Redphoenix526 (talk) 20:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Us at wikiproject sega are taking this choice into our own hands, we will get back to you with our decision. Gaogier 19:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Uh, you can't just decide to "take over" a merge discussion. You can certainly provide input, but it's not like projects have ultimate authority over them. TTN (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Gaogier's a little aggressive about things like this (no offense, Gaogier.) Anyway, TTN, why don't you bring your argument over to WikiProject Sega and we'll discuss it there as well as here. You might find you'll get some different, and perhaps more useful input on the subject. Redphoenix526 (talk) 19:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

i don't know enough about to sonic to offer an informed viewpoint, but the lists as they stand currently are headache inducing. furthermore, i don't see that a lot of these characters even need seperate articles: for example, someone mentioned 'blaze the cat' above. again i'm not familiar with sonic games after 1 and 2, but typing 'blaze the cat' into IGN and gamespy just brings up a few reviews of sonic rush; she's only mentioned briefly in these. typing sonic the hedgehog into gamespy article search yields 83 pages of results. her claim to fame seems to be she is a second playable character, along with sonic, in a game named after (surprise, surprise) sonic. on a sidenote, two of the references in the 'other villains' list seem to be broken links Bridies (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Bridies, Blaze the Cat is a minor character in more games after Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure. Add that to her main game stuff, and I'd say she qualifies to have her own article. Redphoenix526 (talk) 20:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that you read over WP:N and WP:FICT. The number of games has nothing to do with notability. While the characters from Sonic to Amy probably can meet those, any characters below that level of imporantance probably don't have enough real world information. TTN (talk) 21:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

going by the above guidelines she doesn't. they are open to interpretation, but in this case not even close. she is not an iconic character in the way sonic himself is and there doesn't seem to be anything substantial written about her elsewhere. judging from how bad the article is (some of it comically so e.g. the personality section), the editor(s) who wrote it couldn't find anything either. although i guess all this isn't directly relevant to sorting out the current list problems Bridies (talk) 21:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look into finding more sources that establish notability, and if I can't find them, then we'll have to talk about this. But since when does IGN and Gamespy count as anything notable? Eh, not important, and not relevant to the discussion. Redphoenix526 (talk) 06:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

i didn't say the lack of coverage on gamespy and IGN automatically makes her not notable; i just feel it's likely to be indicative of a wider lack of coverage. Bridies (talk) 17:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

And I can understand that. I'm just making mention of that. And also, you do know that Blaze the Cat is a relatively new character, right? She has her own storyline in Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure, and plays the role of a minor character in Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 and is a bonus character in Sonic and the Secret Rings. So I think it's how recent she is and how comparatively fewer video games that she has appeared in compared to Sonic that has resulted in this difference. Redphoenix526 (talk) 20:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The truth is Blaze is non-notable at this current moment if we go by policy and real-world observation. As Bridies pointed out, there are a lack of sites mentioning her in comparison to the more established Sonic characters. As a new character, there is no certainty on her future popularity. Though the policy does not explicitly cover this, Misplaced Pages is no crystal ball and to create an article or information based on a character "might be popular in the future" would be going against that. It would be undue weight to give these characters the spotlight than to those who are "more Wiki-notable". At this moment, Blaze is just a small-fry. It will be easier to write up a good sourced article/section on her if and when she gains further prominence in the future chapters of the series. Jappalang (talk) 23:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's all just a matter of opinion at this point. Meh, it just doesn't matter, I waste too much time about these petty concerns on Misplaced Pages anyway. I'm just a little flustered because I'm sure now you're right, it just doesn't feel like the right thing to do. Redphoenix526 (talk) 03:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

GameFaqs

I'm interested in knowing if the guides on GameFaqs.com can be considered reliable sources. I suspect the answer is no, but it would make writing gameplay sections for articles somewhat easier. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 18:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

While GF itself is a notable site and anything specifically written by GF's own staff would be fine, in order to use a FAQ you'd have to assume that editorial oversight extends to a member of the site's team checking each FAQ and rubber-stamping it as being 100% accurate. Don't see that happening. Are you having trouble referencing a particular article? Someoneanother 18:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The above is correct; however, gameplay sections can rely on the instruction manual (even given that they are primary sources), though it should be easy to identify very unique or notable gameplay aspects from reviews. --MASEM 18:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with the points put forward here, but as Masem said, I feel its much better to use reviews to construct a gameplay section as it helps draw attention to the more notable aspects. -- Sabre (talk) 18:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If you're lucky, IGN's staff would have done an FAQ of the game. I can usually cite a whole gameplay section only using references from them because they're that comprehensive. It saves you from looking for the odd reference to a particular aspect in a review. Ashnard _Talk 18:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

At the very least you can use GameFaqs reviews and guides as references for the game's reception. Which is exactly what you want when talking about how the game was received as fan-based entries are often heavily opinionated. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 19:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

What, do you mean using a random user's review in the Reception section? Ashnard _Talk 19:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Using reviews to populate the section of the article that talks about how players and reviewers felt about the game, usually called a Reception section. Using a selected review or guide can help illustrate how gamers liked or hated the game or one of its elements. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 19:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

These reviews are not appropriate reliable sources, since anyone can post a review or other information to Gamefaqs. Thus, they cannot be used for the purposes you are talking about. --MASEM 19:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Amazing, I never said to use opinion as article source. I must shout it seems, I only said to use them FOR SOURCING THE RECEPTION OF A GAME TO THE MARKET. Seriously, do I gotta draw a picture? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 09:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

<--(remove indent) To use user reviews for sourcing the reception of a game to the market would be Original Research and/or Synthesis, both of which should not be used on Misplaced Pages. Even so, would you randomly select a review or two, or take an average of all the reviews? Basically, how would you choose which reviews to use on the article? Randomly selecting reviews could lead to (possibly unintentionally) an editor's point of view and taking an average would be OR and synthesis. These are some of the reasons not to use user reviews. I hope this helps. ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 09:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Wow, after writing seven Good Articles I never knew that;). What I mean is that I don't think that you can use reviews from randomers. I could just write in what I thought of the game by the same logic. Only established, reliable sources can be used (IGN Gamespot, etc). It doesn't make sense to use anything else. Ashnard _Talk 20:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding GameFAQs FAQs, if the FAQ was written by an "expert" on the subject it would be acceptable. The question then is what makes an "expert", particularly in a field such as this. For example, some games have had people disassemble, trace, or otherwise search the game code to prove or disprove certain prevalent rumors; does that qualify as an "expert"? Regarding user reviews, I wouldn't accept them for the purpose of passing WP:N and generally wouldn't find them at all useful, but if there is reason to contrast "reception by fans" with "reception by critics" they might potentially be useful to help establish the former. Anomie⚔ 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you could cite the main reviews page (if I recall correctly; it's been a while for me) to give a general idea of the rough "community consensus" on how good/bad a game was. I also think it'd be OK to use a FAQ (if well written etc., use judgement) to cite aspects of gameplay. But no GameFAQs reviews (except perhaps staff ones) in the reception section. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 08:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone got it! --AeronPrometheus (talk) 09:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with getting a general idea of community consensus would still be a violation of OR and synthesis. ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 09:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the OR in saying "of 28 reviewers, 13 gave the game 4 stars". Unless you need cite the ability to count to a reliable source. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 10:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The OR is that an editor would be doing the research(no matter if it's one website or twelve) by saying "of 28 reviews...". Crunching the numbers to find out would be the research. ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 10:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I call BS. If you go to that extent, then everything on Misplaced Pages is OR because the editor went out and found information in primary sources and combined it all into a Misplaced Pages article. There is a difference between "research", "original research" as a broad abstract, and "Misplaced Pages:Original research"; I suggest reading the essay Misplaced Pages:These are not original research to (hopefully) gain some perspective on the issue. Anomie⚔ 13:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Anomie. It is absolutely not OR so do a basic tally of numbers like that. Drawing actual conclusions from the numbers might be a bit more sticky, but any normal observation is simply that, an observation. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(←) OK, I'll concede the OR point. However, the question becomes should WE use user reviews like this? How verifiable are they? ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 14:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Citing GameFAQs for any kind of "player response" statement is a really bad idea. User:Krator (t c) 09:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I would personally only use a GameFAQs review to back up a "Some people found the game repetitive" statement, for example. But if you insist on policy thumping the issue I guess I can't stop you. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 10:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Even then it's murky territory, since I know FAC tends to respond to a "some people..." statement with "Who, exactly?" The extent of my use of GameFAQs is to look up release dates and other basic information that doesn't really get cited. Nifboy (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

<cue jaw drop> GameFAQs release dates are user submitted. That means they're the devil! No touchy. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 10:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Could there not be a better source for that information? If there were a lot of people finding the game repetitive, shouldn't there be a review by some magazine who felt the same way? We shouldn't HAVE to resort to using user reviews (not just that it goes against policy) to make a point. It should be out there in a published review. ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 10:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

No, but it contributes to the whole. It compliments the other resources no matter personal standing with some users. If GameFAQs is not to be used then draw up a general ban from linking to them. Instead there's a template used specifically to cite a GameFAQs article o_o. Nothing more I need to say on this, too tired, not a politician, etc. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 10:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I only care if the sources are verifiable, not original research, and not synthesis. If any of these are violated, it shouldn't be used. Not because the information isn't accurate, but because if we start doing it here, someone will want to do it where it's less appropriate on another article. I'm sure some of the information on GameFAQs is verifiable, but this isn't. ~QuasiAbstract (talk/contrib) 10:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

AeronPrometheus, do you mean Template:GameFAQs? That is an "External link" template which is not a citation template. GameFAQs reviews are not reliable. GameFAQ summary pages on a game (FAQs, info, screenshots) may contain useful information which could not be included in the article due to policies, which is why they could be an external link (which is what the template is for). Jappalang (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(←)There is an interesting case to consider here. Let's assume there's a game that gets positive reviews from all professional sources , but there is a known glaring bug or other aspect of the game that users are heavily complaining about, but there's absolutely no press coverage of it (rarely this is the case: there is bound to be a reviewer that at least comments on that issue, but lets assume the hypothetic case where there is not). We as gamers know this to be true, but as WP editors, we have to be somewhat blind to it. Now, as suggested, it seems reasonable to include user review summary scores, particularly if there's a large variance between those as the main "official" site review, but that doesn't address the point where users are finding the game to be bad. I think in this case, and only this case, we first assume good faith and can include a link to a user review or two to source the point (ideally, using "trusted" user reviews), but that should not be the end of it - editors should still be encouraged to look for sources. This way, instead of including the point about what was bad with the game, and then slapping a cn/or/fact tag to the point, adding the user reviews, even if not completely reliable sources, at least gives other editors the framework to understand the point that is being discussed, and may lead one or more editors to know where to find better sources. However, before an article can become Good, these sources have to be dealt with by replacing them or removing the statement altogether since it can't otherwise be verified. --MASEM 14:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Spot on. Two forms of bias to acknowledge:

• Professional reviewers tend to be overly positive with any game from an established publisher.
• Players, particular the kind that dwells on online media like GameFAQs and forums, tend to be overly negative.

User:Krator (t c) 15:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Never ever cite GameFAQ reviews, they're meaningless. I don't even know why we have an external links template for Gamefaqs, I see it on so many articles, and if I work on an article with the link in, chances are I'll remove it. What does it offer? - hahnchen 18:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

As wikipedia isn't a game guide, the external links template for Gamefaqs allows for people who have come to wikipedia looking for help with a game (and I am sure there are a few) to find it!  Doktor  Wilhelm  19:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

By that viewpoint, the GameFaq external links are advertising for the site and should be removed with extreme prejudice. We aren't a collection of links for people wanting to find help with a game, that's what Google exists for. Help with a game does not come under "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews". -- Sabre (talk) 19:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(←)Using GameFAQ reviews as a "player reception" is an idea with an unreliable basis. Under what grounds do the player reviews in the GameFAQ section constitute a fair representation of the entire gamer population? Though Krator have pointed out those player reviews tend to be overly negative, I have to point out there are also the "fanboyz" elements there who give overly glowing reviews. To avoid WP:OR, one would have to be extreme in detail such as "In x player reviews on GameFAQs, y have found...", what purpose would that serve? If GameFAQ player submissions are to be accepted, what about GameSpot, IGN, and the other multitude of gaming sites' player reviews? What does GameFAQ possess which raises its player review section above all others? Jappalang (talk) 23:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with GameSpot/IGN player reviews, but are they reviewed before being submitted? All GameFAQs review submissions are reviewed by a site admin before going live. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 08:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

GameFAQ reviews are approved by appointed volunteer administrators on the main basis of grammar and formatting. Submissions are scanned for incivil remarks and inappropriate content. In a way, they are no different from MobyGames', Amazon.com's, or Home of the Underdogs' player/customer reviews. GameSpot and IGN require registration, and are rated by their peers, a process similar to the ratings systems in GameFAQs and Amazon.com. As such, GameFAQs' reviews are in no way a cut above the rest. More importantly, GameFAQ player reviews (and each other site's player reviews) cannot be construed on their own as fair representation of the entire gamer population. To get a fair representation of "players' opinions", one would have to sum up the reactions of all prominent gaming sites, and derive a conclusion. Jappalang (talk) 09:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification; only one point I would make is that GameFAQs only have 2 admins would give this slightly more weight than what your comment implied (but let's not debate this). As for summing up the reactions of the entire community; I agree that this is difficult, but I also think that, in summing up the thoughts of all GameFAQs, or all IGN or GameSpot, player reviews of a game, we could at least give some idea of the community perspective. Not perfect, but we never are. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 09:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

True, though I must point out it is uncertain how many administrators handle the user reviews at the other three sites mentioned with similar systems. I did say it would be possible to point out player reactions at a certain community in detail, but we would then be running into little wars where one community supporter crying out why should some other community be excluded and such. A sad situation. The best thing we can hope for a player reception source is an established notable survey, or said reporter/journalist actually writing out an article stating "players/fans however .......". Otherwise, sales figures do show a sort of player reception to the game. Jappalang (talk) 10:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm in agreement on that point. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 10:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Oddworld page

Along with the recent incident involving the necessary removal of the fansites from this page, I feel that this page needs a major overhaul; a couple of IP editors are preventing me from doing necessary edits to improve the quality of this article and because the page is so low-activity, no other editors have showed up to help resolve this matter. Basically I'm here to ask for editors to not only resolve this conflict but to help fix up this page. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 04:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Following up with the issue; discussion has been started on the talk page and some of the more questionable content has been removed pending the outcome of the discuss. However, an anon has added the content back 4 times in the past hour and is ignoring requests to discuss in the edit summaries. Is there a resident admin that can semi-protect the page? (Guyinblack25 23:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC))

IP address has already been blocked by another admin. Admins generally won't protect if just one anon is doing it – only when it becomes unreasonbly disruptive will SPP be used. Wtih one, block the one. If that one keeps hopping IP addresses, rangeblock or semi protect. hbdragon88 (talk) 08:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Judging from the comments in the edit history, they have been using 3-4 IP's over the span of the last two months. It wasn't that excessive, but it escalated yesterday. I'll give it some more time and see if it dies down. Thanks for the info. (Guyinblack25 14:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

admin attention is needed again imo. the IPs edits go against policy and consenus. furthermore they are being abusive in the edits summaries; on the talk page the IP states they will wilfully prolong the edit war as well as admitting a conflict of interest on their part with regard to the edits Bridies (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Bridies is right. One of the anon's IP has been blocked twice regarding the issue, see IP talk page They have been asked to stop edit warring and discuss the issue multiple times on another Ip talk page and on Talk:Oddworld. They apparently have been using two IP addresses, 217.150.112.45 and 82.5.133.228, and has stated the ability to circumvent "such silly systems" as IP banning.

The issue has really gotten out of hand in that discussion is not working and the edit war has escalated. Admin assistance would really be appreciated. At the very least can their other IP address be block for violating 3RR? I realize there are more appropriate channels for this, but I figured posting here would be quicker and more effective. (Guyinblack25 18:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC))

I believe you are looking for WP:ANI if admin assistance is required (are admin requests to go through official channels all the time?). Looking through the history of the Oddworld page and its discussion, the IP user(s) (I doubt its more than two or three people at most) has taken up ownership of the page, and used personal reasons for arguments. The IP has a serious conflict of interest. Its insinuation in being "experienced in internet" and "able to avoid blocks" could be construed as a threat and being disruptive. Going through the dispute resolution process, it seems either a report should be filed at WP:COIN, or a request for mediation should be made. By the way, you might want to check the references placed in the Citizen Siege section. The last two are to external wiki sites, which is odd. Jappalang (talk) 22:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

the 'references' on the page are to the fansites/wikis that the anon(s) keeps adding in external links. the in-line citations have either escaped attention because theres no actual ref list or because they kept being put back in. Bridies (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Japanese translations in articles

Over at the FAC for Link's Awakening, a reviewer has said of the original japanese translation provided in the lead "What earthly use is the Japanese script in an English-language text?" I was following examples such as Final Fantasy titles and Golden Sun, and I think that it makes sense to include the original title of a game, but what do you think? David Fuchs 21:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It does indeed make sense to include the original Japanese ("Nihongo") title, simply for the sake of completeness. It's not as if there's a massive Japanese language section in the article; it's just the title of the game. See our VG article guidelines for reference. --Slordak (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

While Tony is a fantastic Wikipedian who has helped raise the copyediting standards on FAC a great deal, I believe he's wrong in this instance. It's definitely worth engaging Tony in this discussion though, since his experience and intellect can only help in improving our own standards. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-6 23:43

Multiply cover arts?

Is uploading one image, so that it has all 3 different region covers on it allowed? For example, User:Chessage replaced Image:European Club Soccer Coverart.jpg with Image:World Trophy Soccer Covers.PNG. Thanks. Salavat (talk) 02:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring the problem with putting that into an infobox (~256px), that image is effective 3 non-free use images (derivative works of 3 copyrighted works). Particularly since it's generic guys playing soccer, I'd argue this is excessive non-free use and only one is needed. --MASEM 03:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

On a separate game from Salavt's. How would I stand if I wanted to upload three covers of the same game that has different names in those three countries, not for the infobox but for a separate section actually about the different names and cover styles?. Everybody's Golf 5 if you were wondering. - X201 (talk) 09:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So the best thing to do would be to find out which one was released first and upload that one? Salavat (talk) 03:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

What I would do for any time there is multiple images is that unless there's a strongly compeling reason to include both (note later) then use the same rule of thumb for naming when multiple English titles exist: specifically, use the cover that is (best guest) the most recognizable cover either based on release date or where the game has sold more, if this info is available, falling back on the first released English version if possible.

(There are exceptional cases for multiple game covers , like Mega Man (video game), but this being a case where the cover actually has some critical commentary regarding it; most cases, a cover is just used for ID.) --MASEM 15:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a solution, thanks for your comments, im going to go change it back to the single cover when i get the time. Thanks, Salavat (talk) 16:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Input on new VG Infobox template w/ alternating color rows:

The Orange Box
The Orange Box in a golf hole
Developer(s)	Valve Corporation EA London (PS3 version)
Publisher(s)	Valve Corporation
Distributor(s)'	Electronic Arts (retail) Steam (online)
Engine	Source engine
Platform(s)	Windows, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360
Release date	Microsoft Windows & Xbox 360 (retail): NA: October 10 2007 EUR: October 18 2007 UK: October 19 2007 AUS: October 25 2007 Microsoft Windows (online): INT: October 10, 2007 PlayStation 3 (retail): NA: December 11 2007 EUR: December 11 2007 AUS: December 20 2007
Genre(s)	First-person shooter, compilation
Mode(s)	Single player, Multiplayer
Rating(s)	ESRB: T-M PEGI: 16+ BBFC: 15 OFLC: MA15+
Media	Steam, DVD-ROM, Blu-ray Disc
System requirements	1.7 GHz processor, 512 MB RAM, DirectX 8 compatible video card, Windows 2000/XP/Vista
Input methods	Keyboard, Mouse, Xbox 360 Controller, SIXAXIS controller, DualShock 3 controller

Per a suggestion on the {{Infobox VG}}, I created the example template as a drop in replacement for the current one as to add alternating row colors with the removal of the line frames. Anyone have any input on it (the picture is to avoid nfc content on talk pages, and no, I can't get rid of the white line down the rows) --MASEM 03:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I was able to get rid of the border (technically, spacing) between cells. I kind of like it with the border, though. SharkD (talk) 12:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I much prefer the unified line meself. I'd be happy with this as an alternative to ungainly cell borders. David Fuchs 12:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks a lot better, I salute thee! --AeronPrometheus (talk) 12:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Suits me, go for it. -- Sabre (talk) 13:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it intended for the caption to be bolded? It is normal text in the current infobox. Jappalang (talk) 14:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. --MASEM 18:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The alternating colours add nothing. - hahnchen 18:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Why do they add nothing? Elaborate. Simply stating they "add nothing" isn't exactly helpful feedback. -- Sabre (talk) 19:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Any idea when the changes will be implemented? I have a list of articles that I want to overhaul the infoboxen on and I don't want there to be a last minute change I have to account for. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

On that note, is the template/doc keeping up with recent changes? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The new version is (should be) a complete drop-in replacement; no parameters to the Infobox VG will change. (I do expect maybe one or two bugs, but minor.) --MASEM 22:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the only thing that would sweeten the deal would be to add the additional functionality of Template:Infobox VG Hidden with Boxart to the main template as an optional argument that can be added to the articles' code. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the hidden infobox template, it should be straightforward to make a hidden version of this one. --MASEM 22:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Makes it easier to see where the fields end, especially when they run multiple lines like the example xenocidic (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice idea. The only thing I'd suggest would be a little more contrast between the two colours. It may just be my monitor and/or eyesight, but they are barely distinguishable to me. Miremare 01:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The color is the same used for alternating colors on {{Navbox}}, which is very subtle but meant to be a visual cue for seeing rows, not so much a strong distinction. (However, I would consider adding a CSS class name for that so that an end user can customize it). --MASEM 06:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else think this is redundant, and might need changing? Specifically, does our infobox really need a title? I can see the need for this for other infoboxes (e.g. persons), because their picture is different. For video games, the picture always contains the title. User:Krator (t c) 14:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It may seem redundant, but remember that some people are visually impaired, or may not wish to see images; furthermore due to improper non-free fair use, images on unwatched articles may disappear. Also, it helps with making it clear what the name of the game is when the title may include a disambg statement or the like. --MASEM 14:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree, the title can still be useful. -- Sabre (talk) 11:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Like it! Much easier to read, thanks Masem :) Someoneanother 01:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The Orange Box
The Orange Box in a golf hole
Developer(s)	Valve Corporation EA London (PS3 version)
Publisher(s)	Valve Corporation
Distributor(s)'	Electronic Arts (retail) Steam (online)
Engine	Source engine
Platform(s)	Windows, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360
Release date	Microsoft Windows & Xbox 360 (retail): NA: October 10 2007 EUR: October 18 2007 UK: October 19 2007 AUS: October 25 2007 Microsoft Windows (online): INT: October 10, 2007 PlayStation 3 (retail): NA: December 11 2007 EUR: December 11 2007 AUS: December 20 2007
Genre(s)	First-person shooter, compilation
Mode(s)	Single player, Multiplayer
Rating(s)	ESRB: T-M PEGI: 16+ BBFC: 15 OFLC: MA15+
Media	Steam, DVD-ROM, Blu-ray Disc
System requirements	1.7 GHz processor, 512 MB RAM, DirectX 8 compatible video card, Windows 2000/XP/Vista
Input methods	Keyboard, Mouse, Xbox 360 Controller, SIXAXIS controller, DualShock 3 controller

Here's the hidden version (note that I've had to force it due to how collapsable sections work). --MASEM 06:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Navbox custom styling, does it improve or reduce the quality of an article?

I recently flipped through the current list of video game Navboxen and conducted some updates and code fixes. Some of the Navboxen weren't using the current Navbox template and some had coding errors which I scoured through and fixed. It wasn't a thorough job, I only updated templates that were visibly in need and plan on going through all of them to make sure the code is neat and tidy.

Another thing I did was remove all custom cell coloring and custom template sizing that I found. The reason I did this was because according to the template docs these stylings were "NOT RECOMMENDED", the all caps phrase having mysteriously disappeared from the doc since, however the note of discouragement remains. They also detracted from the clean feel of the articles as a whole and make them an eyesore in many cases as well as difficult to read in extreme cases. Especially when a custom styled Navbox butted up against a standard one. Some objected to what I was doing in regards to styling and reverted them back however after discussing my reasons with them they offered no further objections, with the exception of one. This person singlehandedly reverted, not changed back, reverted the changes I had made and in tandem reverted genuine changes that I don't believe even he was objecting to. This has since been rectified but I'm now curious...

What does everyone here think should be accepted and avoided when placing a Navbox?

In accordance to the docs, colors and custom sizes should go. I agree that they're not "illegal" but the spirit of the law is that they mismatch with each other especially if there are more than one on the page and would look a lot better and be more presenting to readers than treating them like a website with a color scheme. In addition, the technical side of things is that some of the color arrangements were unreadable on LCD and older CRT displays and custom sizing a Navbox to 75% of the page width would start to look bad real quick on computers running at a lower resolution, making the Navbox a pillar until they became unusable. But because of recent action-based complaints I would like to create an open discussion so that consensus can be reached on the matter. Please note that I'm basing this discussion on the video game templates only, not the entirety of Misplaced Pages templates that use these features. If you object to custom colors and sizes and off-standard styles say Object and give your reasons why. If you support the styles set and feel that color, size and other formatting is purely discretionary say Support and give your reasons why. Thank you. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 10:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

AeronPrometheus didn't supply any examples, so I'll do so here:

• {{Nintendo developers}} - before, after
• {{Pokémon anime characters}} - before, after

I don't see anything controversial about your edits. SharkD (talk) 12:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for linking the visuals. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 12:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree on keeping consistency for the navboxes. The worst offender I've seen for this is {{Daredevil}} David Fuchs 12:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

As per MOS:CAPS, do not capitalize individual words in a phrase, "First Party" should be "First party", and so on. It would also be good to inform the main articles the templates you are correcting are based on. Jappalang (talk) 14:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Went back through the list and got them, thanks for pointing that out. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 20:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I checked again the "Nintendo developers", found the "Former Second party" oversight and fixed it, but you might want to go through your changes once more just in case. Jappalang (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That's what I did, you just caught the one oversight :P --AeronPrometheus (talk) 22:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Aeron has the right sprit, but is taking this to an unreasonable extreme. He's insisting that even changing the width of the template is not allowed , or even colors that go with the colors of other templates for that series of articles (such as the ones for The Simpsons). Take this before and after for Template:Pokemon directory here.

This "zomg NOT RECOMMENDED" section was put in place by a single editor in some template documentation, not a guideline, not a WikiProject page, but a template doc. It was likely added to prevent people from going really crazy on it, but not to be a template nazi. It does not improve templates to insist that all templates take up 100% screen width even if they have six links, or removing a green shaded title bar.

I largely helped make the most used episode list template on Misplaced Pages, Template:Episode list, specifically to help standardization, but made it a point to add options like "LineColor" and "TopColor". Assuming people aren't using eyesore colors, this is largely desired, and often requested from templates that lack such options. -- Ned Scott 02:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I should point out, Ned, that mass-reverting his edits (which also include updates to the code, aside from cosmetic uniformity) is not the most helpful course either. David Fuchs 02:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. I personally saw them as minor technical edits that were not a big loss, but have since restored my changes without removing the improvements he made. -- Ned Scott 02:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that making all templates conform exactly to the documentation's recommendation is a little extreme. The options are there to be used after all. Miremare 01:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd also add that when you're running a larger screen resolution, for example 1900x1200, a navbox with 100% width looks pretty awful. You've either got endless blank space, or endless stuff crammed onto one line. Not ideal in either case. Even an 80% width makes this look much more reasonable. Miremare 05:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That's another issue all together, if a Navbox looks like a string at 100% are there enough articles to justify one? Additionally, you don't HAVE to run your browser at full screen. Someone with a lower resolution, can't make the browser any larger than the screen without scrolling side to side. In this case a Navbox at 80% or 75% and 50% as some of the cases were will look like pillars. Something I explained to someone else and they seem to agree with that observation.--AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If a Navbox has fewer than... five pages(?) linked inside it would probably be better to dissolve it and put said links into the See also section of each page containing the Navbox. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It has long been established that nav boxes with only a few links are perfectly acceptable. -- Ned Scott 07:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

AeronPrometheus, I'm not sure that judging a navbox's right to exist should come down to an arbitrary person's screen resolution. :P However, navbox width isn't really another issue, as that's one of the things you're changing isn't it? I haven't examined your edits other than one template on my watchlist, so forgive me if I'm mistaken. But it seems that while nobody HAS to run their browser full-screen, there's not really any reason I can see for making things more difficult for those who do, especially when even the most crowded of templates tend to look fine even on 800x600. Cheers, Miremare 18:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Aeron has now started an ANI thread about me reverting his style removals at WP:ANI#Ned Scott's mass-undos on Navigational templates. If anyone would like to leave any comments regarding the situation please do. If not, no worries. -- Ned Scott 08:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

List of characters in Bully needs cleanup

This list needs a lot of cleanup. As of now: it's just a massive list of everyone in the game. This falls under game guide content in my view. Bully is a popular and well known game, but that doesn't instantly make every character in it notable. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't even seem like the game needs a character list. After removing the minor characters, the main characters should be able to be covered within the plot and characters sections of the main article. TTN (talk) 20:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Please state rationale for the minor characters being "not needed".

Rationale for them to be needed is that one of the key characteristics of Bully was that all minor characters had distinct personalities rather than the repeating character models utilized in the GTA series.

Article has also been under the supervision of a Wiki admin, Marasmusine. It is fine the way it is. McJeff (talk) 03:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep an Admin came to watch the article for a month or so, deleted the things that wasn't neccesary and reminded us that citing was important, which we the editors on the article have done a lot of in the past. Dan the Man1983 (talk) 04:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

First, I would argue that any significant reduction/movement of this page at this time is against the ArbCom injunction on such edits. So I suggest only talking about it and figuring out issues without making significant changes.

As to the issue at hand, while a list of characters is appropriate, and does not need to demonstrate notability per WP:FICT or WP:N, this list violates WP:PLOT - it is overly excessive plot summary as well as edging on being a game guide. As suggested, the list should be pared down to the major characters, and possibly a summary of the minor characters with a paragraph for each of the major groups.

I'm curious when and what this admin did. A lot of change in consensus on policy and guidelines for what is appropriate has changed over the last year. Mind you, there's no problem with selected quotes and game dialog to help support certain aspects of character descriptions, but what is on that page is pushing fair use allowances. --MASEM 04:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The admin in question was Marasmusine. He stepped in to stop an edit war and then got myself, Dan the Man1983 and Paul1953 on the right path when it came to citing those sources.

Now the argument that the article is unweildy is valid. But my question is - how do you determine whether a character is important? The major vs minor characters in some cases is very clear (Jimmy is major, Bo is minor), but what about characters like Zoe or Mr. Hattrick? They're not precisely major, but they are heavily involved in plotlines. Or what about Algie? He doesn't actually do much of anything important, but he's ALWAYS there... I think he has more cutscenes than any non-main character in the game.

If anyone wants to help trim the fat from the article, I'd suggest heading over to the talk page and saying what you think should be cut. Like, for a crappy comparison thing, making topiary. Trim the excess, see what's left, decide what still needs to be trimmed.

For starters, if being a Game Guide is against wiki policy, I think all the references to errand missions could be cut, and that would significantly reduce the article's size. McJeff (talk) 04:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed task force for WP:CVG

A Bemani task force of WikiProject Computer and video games has been proposed; feel free to comment at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Taskforce for Bemani. --Coredesat 01:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use on main page TFAs

Halo and Donkey Kong recently used these pictures on the main page:

• File:Gw donkeykong.PNG
• File:Bill Gates Master Chief.jpg

Now, I'm about to make a concerted effort to get Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon, and Radical Dreamers on the main page this year; CT and CC have been waiting since mid-2006. I've invested several hours in cleaning them up recently and getting them up to current standard. My question is...if the trademarked MJOLNIR armor, and the copyrighted Game & Watch design and original Donkey Kong game are allowed on the main page because someone took a real life picture of them, does that mean I can take a picture of the cartridge of Chrono Trigger and also have it featured? What about similar merchandise, like the Chrono Cross alarm clock? Or perhaps the words Chrono Trigger carved into the side of a potato? Zeality (talk) 01:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the Master Chief image, trademarked != fair use. See commons:Template:Trademarked (hint: Commons = Free). As for the cartridge, I'd say that commons:User:Geni giving it approval (see the upload log) would make it a 99% given that you can use this...he's somewhat of an expert. I'll contact him and see if he can weigh in here. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0)

It's .....complicated. Okey first on the costume. The argument goes that you can't copyright clothing. This is true. For costumes this gets complicated since the the counter argument is that you can remove bits of the costume and it will still function as clothing. For the handheld game. The game consel itself should be okey but we should probably have blanked out the screen or taken the pic with the screen off. The cartridge of Chrono Trigger would be problematical because the non functional 2D artwork would be so centeral to the image. An alarm clock would be more complicated and fall firming into "I don't know" territory.Geni 15:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The alarm clock idea would fall under a 2D representation of a copyrighted "sculpture", and thus would be a transformative non-free work, assuming that the clock design is copyrighted by the manufacturer. (I had to do this for the toy car image used on the Crazy Taxi (series) page. --MASEM 15:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Depends if a clock was considered a sculpture.Geni 17:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Quoting from the licensing tag I was told needed to be on the image: This is a two-dimensional representation of a copyrighted sculpture, statue or any other three-dimensional work of art. As such it is a derivative work of art, and per US Copyright Act of 1976, § 106(2) who owns copyright of the original has the exclusive right to authorize derivative works. (note that the image was original in Commons, as a fellow wikipedian took the actual shot for a ebay auction, but that was deleted per this argument) --MASEM —Preceding comment was added at 19:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Darn. Well, I've got a free image of a clock face I can use for Chrono Trigger. The Chrono Cross clock is...pretty distinctive, so it might fail the sculpture test. Link if it matters. ZeaLitY 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's better not to use any image, if there is no decent one available. That Halo one especially is quite awful, Bill Gates and a guy dressed as MC doesn't represent the game well, IMO. --Mika1h (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, one last question. Does Chrono Trigger have too many fair use images? ZeaLitY 20:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 22:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Would they be found in the plot or different versions section? ZeaLitY 23:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you should remove the 1st image in the story section, at least one of the audio files, and several of the images in the "different versions" section (else just remove the screenie there). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 07:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I seem to have missed something here. Are we not allowed to use fair use images for FAs on the main page? -- Sabre (talk) 18:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Jimbo removed a fair use image a long time ago, and sine then we don't use fair use. It sometimes leads to edit wars with people scrambling to determine whether the free iamge is representative or not; when Scooby-Doo was featured, for instance, people warred over including a parade balloon Scooby-Doo, a regular generic dog, or nothing at all. hbdragon88 (talk) 21:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Now this is funny (in a curious sense). Every video game FA has fair use images (screenshots, box covers, concept art, etc). Is there an oversight in letting these through, or is the avoidance of fair use restricted to certain circumstances (merchandises, costumes, etc)? Jappalang (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use is ONLY permitted in articles. Main Page is an exception to this rule probably because the everything is transcluded on templates, and templates are not mainspace...or at least that sounds reasonable. I'm pretty sure that picture of the day and the In the news has always consisted of free images, and the TFA just followed suit. hbdragon88 (talk) 00:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Cite video game needs editing

User:SandyGeorgia has pointed out that the cite video game template automatically links solo years; it should not. Can anyone fix this? Zeality (talk) 04:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Link to discussion? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 04:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not quite a discussion at this stage, but Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Radical Dreamers: Nusumenai Hōseki. It goes in hand with WP:DATE's policy to not link years unless a month / day are included. Zeality (talk) 05:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I meant the cite video game template, I'd like to see it. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

{{cite video game}} dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 07:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that it has only a date field, which is wikilinked. Full takes like 2007-06-23 should be wikilinked, but when only a year is supplied in the date field, it should not. This would probably require some template guru to fix. User:Krator (t c) 12:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Or a copy & paste from a working example. Additional:I've copied and pasted the date formatting code from the cite web template and everything looks ok but could others have a nose around and try and break it please. - X201 (talk) 09:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm no whiz, but I took a look, and the formatting seems OK to me. Someone can check a few articles (using the Whatlinkshere) if they want to be certain. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 09:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I tried a few that way and they seemed OK. But there's usually something somewhere that... - X201 (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Destructoid

Is it a notable source? I'm curious because it reports certain community activities that the professional gaming press doesn't. Zeality (talk) 05:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Like most sources where you even have to ask, I'd say "it depends". Its "about us" page is fairly self-explanatory; the site is made up primarily of freelancers, and they like accountability, but that's as far as their editorial policies go. As for whether it's a WP:N-notable website, its AfD is also self-explanatory. Nifboy (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

All right; thanks. I've got it referencing the retranslation of Chrono Trigger along with a note from Siliconera; I'm hoping that's enough third-party support. What about links to OCReMix composer profiles? Someone tried to add game profiles to the Chrono articles, and they've been appropriately removed. But, what's the ruling for examples like these? Zeality (talk) 07:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

OCRemix, although it contains a fairly comprehensive database of the composers whose songs have been remixed, has three things going against it: Its "composer profiles" are little more than directory listings (example), it's not a complete directory (only composers with remixes are listed), and the profiles are set up principally for the purpose of finding mixes on OCR. As such I'd remove them. I looked at a sampling of articles and think there are too many external links on them even without OCR. Nifboy (talk) 11:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I would call it reliable for sourcing relatively uncontroversial claims, but far from enough to establish notability. User:Krator (t c) 11:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Eggerland articles need some work

Eggerland - Departure to Creation and Eggerland (Famicom Disk System) are two examples. Freewebs and Geocities are the primary source for these articles. From what I can see, both are just detailed fansites. I've went through others, and they are either stubs or starts at best. Many need screenshots, reception sections and more. I've started to work on some, but I could use some help. RobJ1981 (talk) 12:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

May need help at Talk:Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi‎

Myself and TTN have proposed a merge of Marth (Fire Emblem) at this page. A couple IPs are starting to hurl abuse at me and are being blatantly uncivil. One changed my sig to say "Ashnerd" and then proceeded to call me "Assnerd". Help would be appreciated. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk 13:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Warn and report the IPs if they don't stop. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Character lists

Can we go over the criteria of what kind of single games actually require character lists without asserting notability? This was recently expanded upon in the newest versions of WP:FICT and WP:WAF, but it is mainly open to interpretation by those working with the articles. While Characters of Final Fantasy VIII is a fine article, Characters of Chrono Trigger shouldn't be given a free pass unless those empty sections are filled out. While it is an RPG, the characters are not that complicated, allowing them to easily be covered within the two relevant sections in the main article. There are around fifty lists just from single games that really need to be taken care of (not to mention series that don't require lists). TTN (talk) 20:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's (roughly) my criteria I use when doing assessments.

1. No game needs a list, but articles on some games may improve when the information on characters is split-off. Do not write up a character list if there's no proper description of a story in the main article: you cannot know if you need a list until you actually notice the space given is too limited.
2. The game has to be story-focused. Age of Empires III doesn't warrant a character list, Myst does. This cannot be easily defined per genre, e.g. Neverwinter Nights has a lousy story with bad characters, but is an RPG.
3. More than plot summaries and trivia. I am not a big fan of the infamous "real world information" hype, because a lot of the real world information available is simply trivia. On the other hand, it is possible to write a good description of a character in an out-universe perspective without using any secondary sources or real world information. Literary criticism uses almost no real world information in book reviews, for example.

You can see the above is assessment-focused, because some problems and solutions are highlighted. Usually it's very hard for editors, including myself, to suppress the fanboyish urge to write down histories of fictional worlds and collect trivia on which designer said what in which preview. It's also very hard to see what should be deleted (i.e. is unsalvageable) and what should be edited. From experience, most articles that are badly written in this area require complete rewrites, so deletes aren't bad from a practical point of view. They are bad from a broader point of view, as they are usually deleted for notability, which prevents recreation and improvement, and deletion generally angers people a lot, which prevents recreation and improvement. I'll settle for rewrites.User:Krator (t c) 21:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The great Famitsu/Kotaku issue and SSBB

Over at Super Smash Bros. Brawl there is presently an edit war about including the fact that SSBB has received the 7th perfect Famitsu score to date in the header, while others continue to notes that Kotaku has pointed out that the Famitsu scores are purposed biased to games they know will sell well (this is outlimed on the Famitsu article), thus this is a non-reliable statement.

Now, there's two aspects of this problem. The first is that I'm inclined that singling out the fact that a game is the xth game for a review source to get a perfect score, not only as a lead statement but in the article, is a very not-notable and edging on peacocking description of the game. Unless for some reason the source says "This is the first game that we have given such a score to" in their review, we shouldn't be synthesizing how many games have come before it. This is similar to the GameRankings/Metacritic rankings discussion before.

The other aspect is how "reliable" is either Famitsu or Kotaku due to this issue and should that influence the inclusion of Famitsu scores? I'd argue that if you agree with what I state for the first issue, this point is a non-issue.

Any thoughts? --MASEM 22:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

And you are going to believe Kotaku, a blog, rather than a magazine that has been around for 25 or so years? Let's see if they last five more years. My point of view: Famitsu is reliable because it has been in the market for years, regardless of accusations, just like Fox News is still reliable regardless of all the fuss about their points of view in politics. About the punctuation itself: if there is another reliable source that states it was the fifth, sixth or seventh game to reach a perfect score, we don't need for Famitsu to state that. However, I agree that it should not be included in the leading. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you even bother reading the Kotaku piece? This is a serious question. If you did read it, did you somehow manage to miss that the only source they give is an anonymous poster on a forum with less than 3000 members. The piece should not be taken seriously under any circumstance. Dlong (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wait. I am not saying Famitsu hasn't been questioned. Tim Rogers from Next Generation also says Famitsu reviews are dubious (like when they did not post the score for that FFVII shooter spinoff because it was going to be a bad one, and Square wanted the game to sell at least the first week without the score). Fans think they are unreliable because of Nintendogs, which while many say it did not deserve that score, I point out that it sold more than any of the others, so the reviewers saw something special there. However, our point still stands: two journalists (or bloggers) against 22 years of history is just that, two journalists against a vast experience. By the way, I removed the reference from the Famitsu. Find a better thing as it, otherwise we will begin quoting NeoGAF again in our sales articles. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to get the "We need sources to state that it's the seventh perfectly scored game in Famitsu"-thing out of the way: Gamespot, Nintendo Players, Wired Blog, Gamepro.com. --Conti|✉ 22:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That'll work , I've added that statement back to the reception section - again, with a source, such a statement is fine, but without it, any statement along those lines would be OR. --MASEM 22:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a BIT off the topic, but why ARE such weights given to Famitsu scores? I've always been under the notion that the scores are four seperate reviewer's number added together. It seems people put too much weight on the high scores rather than, perhaps, what reviewers gave what scores (not that I know if they say or not, not being able to read Japanese or ever having seen the mag, etc.). Ah well. Just a thought. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is unfortunate too many people (readers/gamers/editors) place too much emphasis on the points given than what is said in the article. Regarding Famitsu, I can hazard to say it is because it is the only (if one of the few) Japanese gaming magazine notable to the Western gaming community. There are comparatively very few gaming well known magazines in the Eastern hemisphere than in the West. Famitsu always seems to be brought up because it is a Japanese publication; a faction of community members are slanted towards a "Japan is a gaming haven and knows the most about gaming" view. Another faction view I observed is "Japan produces these games, so the reception there is the most important", which makes me wonder what about those games produced outside of Japan (and what about the Japanese games which are targeted at foreign instead of domestic markets). Disregarding these, Famitsu reviews and scores do provide an insight into another market (Japan), thus broadening the coverage of the game's reception. Jappalang (talk) 00:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is off topic too, but since Smash Brawl was brought up, can someone here fix-up the article in regard to grammar, MoS, etc, etc? « ₣M₣ » 23:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no need for Famitsu's score to be singled out in the lead, it should be mentioned in the reception section. And Famitsu's score is important and reliable, it's the most well read and influential gaming publication in Japan. The scores are the combined totals of four reviews, and I would prefer it if the scores were listed separately (as I do with EGM scores), but if it's 40/40, then there's no need. GameSetWatch has a bluffer's guide to Famitsu worth reading for those unfamiliar with the publication. - hahnchen 00:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unless there is a serious accusation of wrong doing, criticisms of Famitsu should go on their page. SO far it does not seem to rise to the point where it would need singling out in the Smash Brothers article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

I suggest do an list with NDS games that are sequel of GBA games, like: Boktai DS, Pokémon DP, Magical starsign, Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime, Pokémon Mistery dungeon 2, Final Fantasy A2 and Megaman ZX.--MCP9999 (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion Bastila Shan

Could someone restore Bastila Shan temporarily, so that the content can be copied to List of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic characters and refined accordingly? Thanks. — Raffaello9 | Talk | 22:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a 5-days ago cached copy by Google. Jappalang (talk) 23:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've placed the Wikitext up at User:Masem/Bastila of the last edit before deletion, please let me know when you are done with it, thanks. --MASEM 23:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, i've copied the text on the list and you can delete you local copy. I will trim it and fix it when i have time. — Raffaello9 | Talk | 23:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please help to resolve a dispute regarding "partial" exclusivity on List of Xbox 360 games

Please see recent edit history. IP 67.208.226.52 continues to remove the "partial exclusivity" definition from the summary as well as removing it as a value in the "Exclus." column. Prior consensus seems to have been obtained on the talk page. If you need further information, just let me know. Thanks. xenocidic (talk) 15:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The term seems nonsensical to me - how can you have partial exclusivity? is that like being partially dead? This is a general reader encyclopedia and should use words that people will understand, not mircosoft marketing speak designed to confuse. --Fredrick day (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you suggest a better term? we are looking for a way to denote which games, from a console perspective, are only available on the 360. Many console gamers don't care about the PC gamespace and are only looking to research Console wars. Please note that "partial" was fully explained and qualified prior to the edits by 67.208.226.52. xenocidic (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

While we have to keep our general readers and avid gamers in mind when writing pages, we can't really ignore the existence of PC versions of games or the PC platform, even if some readers may only want to know about home consoles. (Guyinblack25 16:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

As a compromise, I've changed all values of "Partial" to "Console" and updated the article summary to explain what "Console" means. Reasonable? xenocidic (talk) 16:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this solution, and it actually does make sense. Note that it's possible to theoretically say that any and every game is non-exclusive. For example, a Zelda game written (only) for the N64 might be played through emulation on the PC, so difficult editors could argue that it's not "exclusively playable" on any one system. However, this is beside the point, and the common sense usage is that it's the only gaming system with the game. --Slordak (talk) 17:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Guy; trying to define exclusivity between consoles and ignoring the PC seems to be defining a term that is otherwise not defined elsewhere - in other words, trying to group games as such is heading into original research territory. Unless there's a reliable source that defines this term for you (and thus makes sense to apply it here) or implies that there is such a distinction, I would be very careful on making that assessment. --MASEM 16:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with what Frederick and Guyinblack25 have just said, as well. Exclusive means just that. It can only be an exclusive if you need a Xbox360 to play it, if you can play it on a PC then its not an exclusive. The PC is a games platform, you can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Just like you can't exclude hand-held consoles as well. - X201 (talk) 16:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

yes that seems a better term to use. --Fredrick day (talk) 16:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a step in the right direction, though I don't think it is the best solution. I'm inclined to say leave it off entirely and let the readers find out in the game's main article. Sometimes making lists too detailed can be counterproductive. (Guyinblack25 16:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

As far as I know, "console exclusive" is not a new term, and will make sense (and be useful information) to console gamers. Results 1 - 10 of about 44,200 for "console exclusive". (0.24 seconds) xenocidic (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Technically, per WP:GOOGLE, search engine tests are more for a first-pass heuristic or rule of thumb. Also, some of those articles used "console exclusive" to describe a special feature that was only in the console version or a game that, at the time, was only available in a console version or on a single console. What you're suggesting sounds different to me, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. I'm still inclined to leave it off. I know a lot of time and effort was put into it already, but that's happened to all of us before. (Guyinblack25 16:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

It's still a fairly widely used and recognized term on the console-gamer space. Gamespot uses it, for example. Anyhow, it wasn't my work, I was just trying to protect it. I still think it's useful information and still don't really see a good reason for it not to be included, now that it has been clarified and fully qualified. xenocidic (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole problem I had with it is that it's just meaningless to me. I have a 360/PC/PS3. What does partial or console mean to me? Your argument was that it was to win some kind of fanboy debate between 360/PS3/WII as that's all it really seems good for. I changed it to No because no, I don't have to play Age of Conan on 360. I also wanted to work out a solution to have a better discription for exclusitivity if someone needed to make sure 360 had some sort of exclusive. Some games are PCs and 360, some are 360 and handhelds, some are 360 and arcades, some are timed exclusives, and some are marketing exclusives. The whole console designation just seems pointless to me. --67.208.226.52 (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

For now, in a "List of Xbox 360 games" Exclus.-Console means, the Xbox 360 is the only console that it can be played on. xenocidic (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(un-indent) Currently, I don't really see how it is "fully qualified", because many of those links used it a bit different from each other. Though I can see how the information could be useful. I still think the wording needs to clarified differently if it is to be included. (Guyinblack25 16:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

I meant fully qualified as in the article summary. Your input on what would be a better term and/or description is definitely welcome. I'm amenable to changing it but the actual values are still worthwhile in terms of Console wars. xenocidic (talk) 16:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

While I can understand the additional information could be helpful, the point of the list is not to facilitate research in a console war. If someone really wants to know the exclusivity of one of those games, they can click on the article link.

Why force people to dive deeper when an excellent list with lots of information exists already? xenocidic (talk) 17:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as other ideas, I'm drawing a blank. The only thing that comes to mind is instead of an "exclusive" column, making a "other platform" column and list what other platforms it appeared on. Though, I don't think this will satisfy the editors of the list. (Guyinblack25 17:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

This would also make the list more convoluted. xenocidic (talk) 17:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but the current usage could also be seen as convoluted too. Sometimes too much information can overload a reader, and I feel that the more columns added can contribute to that. And while lists are meant to be convey organized information, something like "list of X games" is, in my mind, more intended to serve as navigation. (Guyinblack25 17:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Removing the column would inevitably lead to an article entitled "List of Xbox 360 games not available on the PS3 or the Wii" which would in turn lead to talks of merging the article with the List of Xbox 360 games , bringing us full circle =) xenocidic (talk) 17:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see such an article being created, but stranger articles have popped up here before. Even if it was created it would probably be quickly nominated for deletion. Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you. Other than removing it completely, I can only suggest keeping it simple and have exclusive mean XBox 360 only (no other platform). Maybe some other editors here have some other ideas. (Guyinblack25 17:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Thanks all for the input. the present compromise seemingly resolved the dispute. xenocidic (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Uh what? Who came up with a compromise? You buy claiming it was a comprimise and getting your own way?--67.208.226.52 (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the compromise is to note that it's "console exclusive", rather than "partially exclusive", and to amend the text and/or footnotes to clarify that this status doesn't take into account non-native emulation. That seems like the correct direction to go, unless we want to remove the column altogether. --Slordak (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Compromise involves finding middle ground, and in my opinion, we've found it. I've qualified the paragraph further and included a footnote to explain the situation of the PS3 running Windows. xenocidic (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Compromise involves people agreeing on a decision, this isn't a comprimise, it's you just changing the wording slightly and claiming it as a compromise to get your own way instead of trying to better the article. --67.208.226.52 (talk) 05:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Compromise does not necessarily require the agreement of the other party as long as middle ground is achieved. I'm not sure how your desired changes "better" the article - they make it less informative. Curious - I notice you didn't try to impose the same changes on List of PS3 games. xenocidic (talk) 14:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey 67.208.226.52, purely out of curiosity, what do you think is wrong with the present version of the table? When I first looked at it, my thought was: "Wow, all of the list of console name games articles should be like that." I think it is an excellent way of conveying to both PC (by that I mean all non-console gamers) and console gamers whether a game is available on the system of their choice or not. If you would definitively state your objections to the present version of the table instead of engaging in revert wars and attacking other users, it would be a lot easier to resolve this dispute. Thingg 03:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Articles needing assessment

I'm repopulating Category:Unassessed video game articles since we finished assessing all the articles that had the {{WikiProject Video games}} tag. So get assessing! JACOPLANE • 2008-02-12 15:57

Don't place templates on pinball game articles. Computer pinball games are good but not actual pinball machines. --Mika1h (talk) 20:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, my mistake, it's because I've been adding articles from Category:Video games developed in Japan, and some of the subcategories include pinball games, like Category:Sega games. I'm trying to avoid adding them now, if you see any please remove the template. Using AWB is kind of monotonous so sometimes your attention wanders off. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-12 21:11

Argh just did it again... JACOPLANE • 2008-02-12 21:15

I just looked at Category:Pinball games and saw a few video game based pinball games (RollerCoaster Tycoon (pinball) & Street Fighter II (pinball)). Those may need VG banners. --Mika1h (talk) 21:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Just added some more articles. This should take us beyond 20,000 articles tagged. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-16 20:06

Quick EL note

I've got Chrono Trigger nominated for March 11. Are the GameFAQs and Mobygames external links necessary? ZeaLitY 06:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Id say there not, GameFAQs only lists data, like realise dates, which we have here and mobygames has about the same infomation wikipedia has, maybe even less detailed. Also mobygames is on the spam list, i say get rid of them. Salavat (talk) 06:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Where? I see no listing of MobyGames at MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist or in any of the relevant spam admin areas. And personally, I would disagree regarding the Moby link for Chrono. A look at the page shows much more related content that's not allowed on Misplaced Pages entries (a prime reason for inclusion by guidelines) including related reviews, screenshot galleries, etc. I really think consensus for inclusion should be drawn amongst the regular contributors to that article rather than here. Better to take it to the talk page there and see what the regulars think. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 07:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have MobyGames (IIRC) on my FA (Age of Mythology), but I think you should take out GameFAQs. No reason not to cite it for gameplay etc. though. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 08:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty much the only editor left at Chrono Trigger. Most of the team who helped promote it to FA in August 2006 have left (most notably Ryu_Kaze), and I've slacked off on watching it...so it was really bad (perhaps even FAR-worthy) before the January upkeep. It's in the TFA request system, and I've asked for suggestions on the fair use images issue. ZeaLitY 08:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that the External link section is meant for listing sites which contain further helpful information on the article but could not be included in it due to various reasons (mainly policies, refer to WP:EL#What should be linked points 3 and 4). As such, GameFAQs/MobyGames list need not be included if they do not contain such information. No rule ever existed for them as necessary inclusions in all game articles. That said ZeaLity, it will be better for you to refer to the TFA board on whether such links are acceptable (they might have similar policies on ELs to the no non-free images on the Main Page case). Jappalang (talk) 08:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Except to an official site, external links are never "necessary" as in "required". Besides an official site, no other links should ever be automatically added, but they can be added if they meet the criteria of the external links guideline. Discussion about specific links for a specific article though should go on that talk page. 2005 (talk) 10:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to point out to Marty Goldberg, mobygames is on wikiproject spam, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/LinkSearch/Mobygames.com. Salavat (talk) 13:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, a linksearch is hardly being designated as spam. Its simply to "find all articles that contain such links", and is usually done to check spamming by an individual with more than one account. Once again there has been no administrative request or action towards designating Mobygames itself as spam as I can see. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's dependent on how extensive the Mobygames page, but more often than not it's pretty bare and should be removed. I haven't seen a case where a Mobygames link is actually suitable for inclusion/offers something else from what an FA does. Ashnard _Talk 16:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As for the example, I can't see a reason at all to include it as an external link. Ashnard _Talk 16:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ashnard. Something like that should be determined on a case by case basis. Having a blanket ban or inclusion policy oversimplifies the issue. If someone adds it in, we check out the page and see if it adds something beyond the article. If yes, leave it alone. If no, we cite WP:EL. (Guyinblack25 16:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC))

Links on the Quake 3 Page

I noticed somebody added a couple of links to the Quake_III_Arena page. I think they're useful links, but someone else didn't, so that person reverted them. I unreverted them, but they reverted them again, saying that wikipedia is not a repository for links. But look at the Doom article. That has plenty of similar links to the ones (in other words, comprehensive, up to date ones featuring custom content for the game in question) that were put up on the Quake III page, and the Doom article has been a featured article on Misplaced Pages's main page before. Anyone got any comments on how to resolve this dispute? I'm not 100% sure about the other two links but the LVL maps page should definitely be kept. Ben 2082 (talk) 17:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Underdogs links under attack

Just a heads up. A user named ShakespeareFan00 is going around numerous video game articles and removing links to Home of the Underdogs with the comment "Remove underdogs site - Please do NOT support sites that host warez in any form". He doesn't cite any policy that he is enforcing. I think he just thinks HotU is a warez site and doesn't like them. You might want to keep an eye out for him. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've notified the user on their talk page. HotU often includes useful information about obscure games that cannot be found anywhere else, and there is a lot more content there than just "warez". It's not like we're linking to some bittorrent site here. As far as I know the legal situation regarding abandonware is rather ambiguous (IANAL), so rejecting the website outright seems to be pushing it kind of far IMO. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-13 18:39

I don't personally have an opinion one way or the other, but per WP:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#External_links, links to abandonware sites are "questionable" and should be avoided. xenocidic (talk) 18:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This same user also (under his noted alternate account) has taken it upon himself to delete hundreds of links, many of them perfectly valid and relevent, to YouTube with the simple explanation of "status unclear"...not to mention other issues I've seen. I can't say it's nessesarily a good think to link to HOTU because it IS potentially copyright infringing, but the reasoning is really off and...well if I say any more it might be a personal attack. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

To respond - My sometimes over-zealous nature's already been pointed out.

Before anyone accuses me of being on a crusade, I'm not. Being a wiki (link can and probably have been reinstated.)

The HoTU links were for the most removed because a specific HoTU page linked directly to a download for the game concerned, even when it was clear that the game was likley to be still copyrighted. Whilst to some extent it's still an open area for lawyers, AFIAK websites can be held responsible for something called 'contributory infringment'(?) by linking to copyright infringment( remember TV Links? or the fuss that's raging about TPB?).

In any case I still feel it's unwiki to link to sites that use 'alternate distribution' when the information is duplicated by other links in the article which do not (for example many of the HoTU linked pages also had a MobyGames entry). English Misplaced Pages should be encouraging 'free' attitudes, linking to abandonwarez is not encouraging 'free' attitudes.

Abandonware is also NOT a grey area. Unless software's been explicitly 'liberated', or it was under 'free' distribution terms in the first place, it will still be copyrighted in some form. It could be argued that current copyright laws have lost the plot in respect of old software, but the way to challenge those laws is legally, not by sidestepping them. Sites like HoTU do have a place in archiving old games, it just a shame more of them don't follow the example of other sites (notably World Of Spectrum or Liberated Games) that actively try to obtain permissions for hosted material.

In respect of You Tube links, these are removed precisely because their status is unclear, If it obvious (or would be obvious) that the You Tube uploader is indeed the rights owner in respect of the clip then I've tended to leave them in.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, seems some HOTU links were over-zealously removed - those links have been restored ShakespeareFan00 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not expressing any personal opinion on this matter, just pointing to the page Misplaced Pages: Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works where it states "... if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States ..." --Craw-daddy | T | 21:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Any links to sites violating copyright should be removed. Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. This is why many YouTube links can be removed on sight. I don't know anything about the site in question here, but if it is violating copyrights, then the copyvio material should not be linked to. 2005 (talk) 21:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

HotU says they are about current underdog games as well, games that don't get enough credit, and they say that they link to the sales pages for those games and not to any archives. HotU says they encourage any copyright holders to contact them if there is some problem. They say if an old game pops up for sale somewhere, they will link that and not offer any files. I find that the site has plenty of valuable information for gamers. The policy referred to above says that the copyrighted material should not be linked, but the Rescue at Rigel Misplaced Pages page didn't do that; it linked to an HotU page with plenty of content about the game. Visitors would have to click on an additional link on *that* page to access the archive for the old game (which was on the HotU site). I do not think HotU should be blacklisted and I don't think a link to HotU reflects poorly on Misplaced Pages at all. DanielM (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Stolen stuff is "useful", but the usefullness is not in question here. The point is simply no links to pages with copyvio. Whether the entire domain is blacklisted because of a proponderance of copyvio is a separate issue. Until the whole domain gets a death sentence somehow, linking to the non-copyvio pages seems okay according to the policy, but linking to copyvio pages is definitely not allowed. 2005 (talk) 01:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on what DanielM says above, I think we should be free and clear to link to HotU pages. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 13:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they have to click on an additional link on that page, it prominently leads to a copyright violation directly stored on their site. Jappalang (talk) 15:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're allowed to link to the site in its main article, then as long as we don't link directly to a page with copyvios, it seems as if that should be ok. Same thing as we're allowed to link to YouTube if the copyright on the video is fine -- even though that vid may link to one that isn't in the 'related' section. IMO, anyway. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 15:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The allowance for Youtube's videos are based on faith in their Terms of Service, in which they claim to delete copyright violations, e.g. they recognize full/long clips of television shows as flagrant violations, and actively pursue such deletions (although it is arguable how widespread their policy is). HotU doesn't even take this approach. They take a "links shall be left here until the owners protest" approach, which is flagrant copyright violation. Jappalang (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Quite Unlike Liberated Games, which has only archived 'legit' stuff, or World Of Spectrum which as well as hosting legitimate material for which it has permissions, prominently takes a stance about at least trying to contact rights holders, and has an entire section about the issue, it's why you can't for examples find Dizzy on the site. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional references:

• WT:EL discussion on "Clarification on EL policy (re: sites that contain abandonware)"
• Current Wikiproject Video games guidelines on external links
• WT:COPY discussion on "Link to sites that list illegal files"
• WT:COPY discussion on "Abandonware"
• WT:COPY discussion on "A link to a web page that infringes copyright"

I believe it would be better to direct this discussion to WT:EL as "abandonware" is not restricted to games alone but all software, or even copyrighted papers. A wiser approach is to go to WT:COPY for clarification on the HotU issue. Also refer to 2005's comments in this thread regarding current WP:COPY's policy. Jappalang (talk) 15:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

God fucking damnit, I recently had Radical Dreamers promoted to FA because HotU links helped provide information that could not be found in any other notable source. Now, I suddenly have an article with a ton of s that probably wouldn't have passed FAC? When's Misplaced Pages just going to ban all articles on copyrighted topics period? I'm already damned to not having pictures with my TFAs.

This user finds copyright paranoia disruptive.

Enough already. I'd rather not have to rip off HotU's review and put it up on the Compendium just because of this paranoid technicality. ZeaLitY 19:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, removing external links is one thing, but actually removing references and adding {{fact}} tags seems not something we want to be doing. As Zeality pointed out, sometimes HotU is the only source for a piece of information. I hardly feel that using the site as a source is promoting copyright violations. Clearly the text on the HotU site is their own copyright, and that is what we're sourcing. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-14 20:02

This AfD discussion is also relevant here: Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_July_28#Template:Hotu. Since the result was keep there was previous consensus that HotU was an acceptable site to link to. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-14 20:07

Umm, the result for that TfD is no concensus which means either side was unable to clearly present its case. The recommendation was to use the External link template on a case by case basis. As for using HotU as a reference source (i.e. citations), funny enough, WP:V and WP:RS never address the issue of copyright violations on a referred site (as far as I can tell). The issue of linking to illegal content is presented in WP:EL, another section of an article on its own. I am uncertain if WP:EL applies to references. Another issue for the guideline/policy makers to thresh out perhaps. Jappalang (talk) 00:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It is official policy to never link to a page where copyright is being violated, Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. "...do not link to that copy of the work" is as clear as it gets. A page on this site that has no copyvio on it is fair game to link to; a page that has copyvio should never be linked to as a reference or as an external link. It's a very clear line -- except of course in an editor being sure the page is a copyvio or not. When it plainly clear though, there should never be a link, and any reference or external link should be removed on sight. 2005 (talk) 01:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So the policy is no linkage to a page with copyright violations. If an HotU article on 'Abandoned Game#1' has no links to its "abandonware", then it is deemed passable for use; but if the article has "To download this game from our archive, click here", then it is not allowed? Jappalang (talk) 01:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry for skipping all the discussion, but in case it is not clear: unfortunately, Underdogs links are not to be used. Abandonware is not protected by law, and considered copyright violation. The fact that the copyright owner hasn't demanded to have their games down does not invalidate the copyright (contrary to the trademark, where the owner may lose the trademark if he does not enforce it). Anyone adding links to the site must be warned about that. I would suggest removing all the links except for the article about the site itself. Misplaced Pages:External links#Restrictions on linking is clear: Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. We know it violates copyright. Linking to a page that has no game for download falls in this category: we are linking to a site that we know violates copyright. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Then, to all those whose articles will be castrated by this latest bout of paranoia, I invite you to post the HotU reviews verbatim (minus the ROM links) on the Chrono Compendium's forums, where the appropriate threads can be cited. ZeaLitY 03:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, quoting anonymous posts in a forum is better, right? What happened to our reliable source guideline? If HOTU is indeed reliable, you can cite it without having to use the URL (instead of {{cite web}} use another template, like {{cite journal}}. Don't force me to go through all the articles deleting links to forums again, please. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I presume that if one is to use {{cite journal}} for HotU links, then the url field has to be completely empty and non-included comments have to placed close to the template in the article to warn off adding in the url in good faith? Jappalang (talk) 03:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If it can be cited by the journal template, fine. That said, I have no respect for wars in gray areas, nor copyright paranoia. That we cannot have fair use images on the main page is because editors capitulated to a single edit by WP:JIMBO, bypassing the policy, discussion, or guideline processes. This is hardly different from the guy who decided to strip all articles of information on notable fan translations. It's just another crippling restriction in a long history against editors of copyrighted articles. I should have made my focus before coming to Misplaced Pages revolve around rocks or rain. I am already fighting like holy fucking hell on earth to get Chrono Trigger on the main page for March 11 against extreme prejudice against video game topics. ZeaLitY 03:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well don't link to copyvios then :). It should be possible to find sources that aren't as controversial as HOTU is. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed a decline in WP editing lately. Issues like this are exactly why. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 04:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If the 'temporary' decline leads to an increase in quality, and the removal of 'questionable' practices where's the harm? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Because the people leaving are also heavy contributors of "good" content. I've already seen a few people leaving/breaking/whatever because of various similar issues to this,. The problem isn't nessesarily that people are removing 'bad' things, the bigger issue is being so heavy handed about it. Removing 100 links in a half hour is easy, but it's VERY hard to fix (without a bot any way) if they are found to be allowable in actuality. So even if everything still exists, it's often just simply too much effort to get things back to where they should be, and the encyclopedia suffers for it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 17:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Assuming good faith is one thing, but honestly this almost seems like it could be treated as vandalism. I was about to revert it, but decided I didn't want to war here, but seriously, if enough people decided it was a reliable source that the article got promoted to FA, then taking it off is very very petty. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I will say that I've been immensely turned off to contributing by the response to Chrono Trigger in FA request system. I might as well not even try to get video game articles to FA, because they don't have a chance in hell of being supported by 'diversity police' and making the main page. There is a strong undertone that video games are inferior, unimportant subjects, and that the main page should feature the same old FAs on general topics several times over versus permitting every video game FA to at least make it on once. ZeaLitY 22:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You just realized that? I did almost two years ago. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

We're lucky here, even. My direct translation of the English FA Supreme Commander was not accepted on the Dutch Misplaced Pages for FA (which has really low standards anyway) because it's on a video game. User:Krator (t c) 01:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've directly addressed it at a new section in Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/requests with a few discussion questions. Nothing but eerie silence so far. ZeaLitY 18:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Direct translations of articles almost never create a featured article in another Misplaced Pages. Also, the English Misplaced Pages has a lot of gaming-related users who "support" featured article candidates, making it easier to promote them to that status than in other Wikipedias. Maybe it is just me, but whenever someone puts a gaming-related article as candidate, the people who usually give opinion in other candidates just "disappear". Try removing the users with gaming experience from the gaming candidates, and you will notice they would have never been promoted. Other Wikipedias don't focus on gaming so much, and therefore make it much harder to get them to featured status. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That must typical of others' experience, because every game FA I've had has been shaken down by SandyGeorgia or Tony1. ZeaLitY 04:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

2 similar Xbox Live Arcade lists

I've tried to redirect List of Xbox Live Arcade releases by date into List of Xbox Live Arcade games several times, but it always gets reverted. Do we really need the "by date" list? It's just redundant to the main list. The editors that revert claim "It's not the same page, and includes other things" as reasoning to keep the date list. However, the other things that mention is very few overall. I see no other console or download lists like this, so I don't see why this has to be an exception. RobJ1981 (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it does contain some additional useful information such as the downloadable content releases, and various milestones and events. It's also a good chronology of releases. PS3 had a similar article that eventually was merged with the List of PS3 games and now it's just a bloated article altogether. xenocidic (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with RobJ, the extra information is minute when compared to the repeated info. The content can easily be merged into the List of Xbox Live Arcade games, probably as prose in the lead. (Guyinblack25 18:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC))
Edited comment (Guyinblack25 19:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC))

Except for the fact it's readable, easy to understand, and doesn't make you claw your eyes out like the Upcoming Games for XBLA list. Simple = better, and if they want to revert THAT list to the way this one is done, please do.

Get it? Simple = good. It's cleaner, more easy to understand, and shows stuff like when there was NO additions to Wednesday, which was actually a huge issue at the time. But, I suppose if you're part of the Cult of Deletion and can't stand (gasp) 40K worth of useful information... JAF1970 (talk) 19:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, that doesn't really address the fact that the content is essentially duplicated on two pages. With the main list being sortable by date, having a separate list organized by date seems redundant. I'm all for making a readable, informative, and understandable list. But having two lists like this is not within the guidelines of Misplaced Pages. (Guyinblack25 19:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC))

in addition to DLC, this article also shows Xbox Original releases, which are both missing from the proposed redirect target. It should be renamed to Chronology of Xbox Live Marketplace Game & Game Content releases by date or something. xenocidic (talk) 19:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Both lists provide a good amount of information, but the amount of overlap is just too great to keep them separate. Information like the launch date and start of the Wednesday program can be presented in prose in the lead. Any skipped Wednesdays can be added in prose too, provided there aren't too many. A link to List of Xbox Originals can be added in a "See also" section of the list, and details like additional downloadable content should be in the game's main article, not on a list. (Guyinblack25 20:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC))

To respond to JAF: that "cult of deletion" comment was rude and not needed. Misplaced Pages simply isn't the guide to everything, even if you would like it to be. There is policies and guidelines in place for good reason: so Misplaced Pages doesn't become an anarchy with no deletion ever. The date list is redundant, plain and simple. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

AFD is the correct venue here, so I nominated the article. (link) User:Krator (t c) 09:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Metal Gear Ac!d

I'm a bit confused here...The games are known as "Metal Gear Ac!d" and "Metal Gear Ac!d 2", so why is it that Metal Gear Ac!d and 2 Redirect to Metal Gear Acid and 2? The game is called Ac!d, not Acid, This should not be the case at all! Dengarde ► Complaints 18:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of what ridiculous things companies do to make their product names stand out, we need to use standard English. See: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (trademarks) --Slordak (talk) 19:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger TFA

Wow, I've been hitting the WP:VG talk page a lot lately. Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/requests. It's getting objections because...it's a video game article. Apparently, one per month is too many for a diversified encyclopedia such as Misplaced Pages. Any support there is appreciated; it was a fight to the death to merely get ONE in line for February (the Agatha Christie Orient Express game). Chrono Trigger's been waiting since August 2006 to hit the main page. ZeaLitY 19:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Release Date Problem

Hey everyone -- I was putting in the US release date for GT Advance Championship Racing (a Game Boy Advance game), only to find that different sources use different dates, and some of them just didn't make any sense.

• IGN: June 11, 2001 (The release date of the GBA in the US)
• GameFAQs, GameSpot: June 9, 2001

... now, obviously, the GameSpot/GameFAQs date is wrong, simply because the Game Boy Advance wouldn't be on store shelves for another two days. I've put in June 11 as the date I'm using. But what I'm concerned about, is that I'm using the GameFAQs source (not so much GameSpot at this point) to source other things in the infobox -- if it has a release date like that wrong, can it still be trusted? Nomader 07:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe GameFAQs is unreliable as a reference source; reference GT Advance Championship Racing Information should be replaced with more reliable sources. That said, according to THQ's press releases, the North American release date is June 11, 2001; THQ announces GT Advance Championship Racing for US launch of Game Boy Advance, and GT Advance Championship Racing ships for GBA. Advance GTA's Japanese release date (March 21, 2001) can be referred from Nintendo's website. Jappalang (talk) 08:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of games have been on sale a few days before their console release dates. I don't remember which off hand, but I'm almost positive even as recent as Wii and/or PS3 it happened. It's not "obviously wrong" at all, and if you think about it, it makes sense -- having it already on store shelves guarantees it'll be there for those who buy the console as well as those who might otherwise have missed it among the other launch games, or would go in and just buy X in the madness and not even know the other exists. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The case in question is a conflict in release dates. Disregarding the unreliable GameFAQs, we are left with what are termed 'reliable'; GameSpot and IGN. Logical verifiability should determine which date is retained in Misplaced Pages. IGN's version is backed by THQ's press releases. What is GameSpot's supporting documents the release is on June 8 (as seen on my browser)? GameSpot itself is carrying THQ's press release which states June 11 but gives no supporting documents on a June 8 release, which renders their proclaimed release date illogical and unreliable in my view. WP:VG/DATE should address which version we should follow in situations where games broke their official release dates (or to go for WP:V). Jappalang (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been using GameFAQs after I noticed some users citing it in the articles I created -- I'll switch them over to more reliable sites. But for future reference, should I put all GameSpot release dates under similar scrutiny due to this error, or should I regard this as just a chance typo? -- Nomader 23:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sites can make mistakes. Being declared a "reliable source" doesn't make their presented information 100% correct. If conflicting information is brought up, scrutinize/investigate further. Jappalang (talk) 00:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Dragon Age

I generally do not revert twice, so I'd appreciate someone else solving this. Thanks. User:Krator (t c) 19:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd treat it as vandalism ("Nation enslaving simulator"? Riiiight) - Vandalism is ignorable in considering 3RRs. --MASEM 19:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I tend to have weird principles. Thanks for the help. User:Krator (t c) 21:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Spore

A user JAF1970 has created separate articles for the DS and Mobile ports of Spore without consensus. The two ports are arguably not notable enough to justify their own separate articles, and if other video game articles serve any precedent, then games that are released under the same name (regardless of platform) are to be contained within a single article, with version-specific information confined to their own separate section within the main article of the game. One such example is The Sims 2: Pets. Despite the name, there was 6 completely different versions of the game (across 9 different platforms) released for the game, yet any information regarding the game was confined to a single article. JAF1970 is being highly uncooperative and it's impossible to reach a consensus at the moment. Matters are being discussed in the Spore talk page.

In short, my argument is that any information regarding the DS and Mobile versions be confined to the main article. It would be silly to create yet another article for what is essentially the same game once/if the next-gen console versions are released. Sillygostly (talk) 06:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Is JAF1970 the same editor in the "two lists for XBox live content" thing above? User:Krator (t c) 13:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, though I don't see as how that's relevant to the present discussion. xenocidic (talk) 13:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Should we propose a merge using Template:Merge? That way, we could have the re-direct while keeping all the content in the main spore page. Apparently, in the DS version, Sillygostly has already tried three times , , to create a merge link to the main article, and three times, JAF1970 has reverted the article back to its original status. Isn't that a violation of WP:3RR? -- Nomader 04:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Age of Empires III: The Asian Dynasties

Going slowly towards GA. How much game info is too much, what should go, and is there anything else needed? dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 10:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

IMHO: remove the mercs, maps, and wonders. Do describe the wonders, just don't list them. Maybe a few examples to illustrate the historical references. New game modes are significant. Also, delete some of the ridiculous references to plain fact statements. User:Krator (t c) 13:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Some work done. Any more comments? dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 06:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

• The treaty game mode was not introduced in TAD, but in a TW patch. The no blockade addition is new. Perhaps that section could be converted to prose from the current list?
  • Done.
• The Gameplay section needs to explain some of the terms, so readers are not required to read the previous articles. What is an explorer? What is a minor civ? How did civs advance from age to age without wonders?
• The Development section is very informal and could use a copy edit, too.
• Just a personal question, is it any good? I don't own it, as I can no longer play online, but I may just buy it for the single player campaign. User:Krator (t c) 06:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, one point dealt with quickly, the rest I'll get to one day. I don't own the game either, but I doubt it's better than AoE3, which, in turn, was shite. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 06:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages and items/units

The StarCraft unit pages were deleted a couple of years back, but a lot of disambiguation pages to units that shared their name with real life counterparts still contain a reference to them, although I cleaned most of these up to get rid of the red links: ie, "Zealots, basic Protoss templar infantry in the StarCraft series". However, I wonder if they even have any right to be on the disambiguation pages, I would have thought that the pages aren't meant to list everything associated with their name, but are meant to help navigation through encyclopedic content that actually exists as articles or list things that are otherwise relevant (in the same way HMS Prince of Wales lists two ships that don't have articles, but is dealing with something encyclopedic and actually real). Should I remove the references to the units in these disambiguation pages? -- Sabre (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

If it is a topic that is covered in some level of detail (be it that it may have been merged to a common page or the like), it should have a redirection page and should appear in disambiguation pages should a naming conflict occurs. This allows a reader to find a topic easily by searching. (eg, GlaDOS points to Portal (video game) Now, with the zealots example, I don't think it needs to be such a case since the specific units aren't describe in any detail (as best I can tell) in the Starcraft articles. --MASEM 21:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Even more assessment!!

Posted this above, but probably best to post here again, I'm repopulating Category:Unassessed video game articles (once again :) So get assessing! We now have over 20,000 articles tagged! Metadatatest.js is a nice tool which makes assessing articles a lot quicker. JACOPLANE • 2008-02-16 22:30

FL Category

I know that our banners support the "FL" (Featured List) category -- but, we haven't created a category page, and several lists (such, as, these) are listed as Featured Articles in our banners instead. Is it really important? Or should we create the FL category page and add games into it? -- Nomader 00:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think changing the class parameter from FA --> FL will create and populate the category. Not sure about that, someone else may want to chime in. But I think having the category is helpful, as I think there are enough FL to fill it and more will probably pop up in the future. (Guyinblack25 19:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC))

Hi

Hi I'm PrestonH, and I'm new to this WikiProject that I recently joined. Can anybody help me out a little? (In terms of MoS, what to do, what not to do etc.) PrestonH 19:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Welcome Preston. If you are looking for specific information regarding writing VG articles, I'd check out WP:VG/GL. Of course, other Misplaced Pages guidelines dealing with MoS and other policies still apply. The best thing to do is just try editing an article you're interested in and learn as you go. If you have any questions, please feel free to post here again, or maybe try the talk pages of some of the editors that post here frequently. (Guyinblack25 20:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC))

Keep an eye on Gran Turismo 5 Prologue

A car list keeps getting re-added to it. I've clearly stated in the edit summary: the section doesn't belong, as it's a game guide. The user that keeps reverting me, because the information is "interesting". RobJ1981 (talk) 19:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Mullen, Micheal (2007-09-26). "Orange Box Goes Gold". GameDaily. Retrieved 2007-12-10. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
2. ^ Cite error: The named reference europe11 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. "Steam - Portal". Valve Corporation. Retrieved 2008-01-25.
4. "Steam - Portal". Valve Corporation. Retrieved 2008-01-25.

• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists