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Lede

Can I just ask -

• 1. do we agree that "In 2012, Sarkeesian was targeted by an online harassment campaign following her launch of a Kickstarter project to fund the Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series. Supporters donated almost $160,000 to the project, far beyond the $6,000 she had sought. The situation was covered extensively in the media, placing Sarkeesian at the center of discussions about misogyny in video game culture and online harassment." is still more notable than the actual speaking engagements she has since had? I'd like to see that part moved as I'm not sure the significance for her is really that high. It was the initial flashpoint, but there's been so much since then that we should consider knocking it off and including some of the actual notable content from the last couple of years.

• 2. is Tropes actually still the most relevant thing about her career?

I'd like to argue that maybe the lede should be more representative of what has happened in the last 4 years, rather than still very much in 2012 mode. Koncorde (talk) 00:11, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The lead (ideally) should just summarize what's in the article. For better or worse, a significant proportion of the article and sources on Sarkeesian deal with the harassment campaign, which continues today. Other than that, they mainly talk about her series and/or Feminist Frequency. Honestly, I'm not sure speaking engagements are nearly as significant as those points.--Cúchullain /c 00:15, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, to be clear I am not on about removing the harassment - I am on about making it flow within the broader context of the last 6 years as she is now (arguably) notable outside of the Kickstarter campaign, and the harassment that continues is as much to do with Feminism and her other activities than the fact of how much money she got. Koncorde (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, feel free to take a stab at it or propose something here. I'll try as well when I get a moment.--Cúchullain /c 13:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Canadian-American

In general, most articles are moving from using X-American to the more precise "X born American", so in this case "Anita is a Canadian-born American". But is there a reliable source on her nationality? You can't really "self-identify" as being from another country. This is a precise legal matter. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 01:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Nationality and citizenship are related but not identical concepts; one is a (sometimes) precise legal matter, the other is not. That being said, I'll see if I can't dig up a reference. Dumuzid (talk) 01:26, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, it's already sourced: current sources 3, 4, and 5. Woodroar (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

So she was born in Canada, and now lives in the USA. She identifies as Canadian-American, but I don't think this is a nationality. Based on Canadian Americans, this probably means that she was born in Canada, moved to the USA, and got American citizenship. Right? Unless she lives in the USA but is still Canadian. In that case she has Canadian citizenship and, I guess, Canadian nationality. Right? I'm a bit confused =/ Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 01:49, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

She might be a citizen in both countries; I know at least when emigrating from the United States in to Canada, you are not required to actually renounce your U.S. citizenship in order to gain Canadian (though the oath still says you do). She might be a legal permanent resident of the United States and still a citizen of Canada which is sometimes (erroneously in strict legal terminology) referred to as being a U.S. 'national.' Nationality is, at any rate, generally a lesser status than citizenship (which generally carries the right to vote). The more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with the current description--since she was born in Canada but apparently lives in the United States, it seems clear she has emotional and legal ties to both, and that this is enough to use the descriptor she does. But I could be wrong! Dumuzid (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Per MOS:IDENTITY, we use the term used by reliable sources, otherwise we use the term the person uses themselves. We should never resort to OR, especially on a BLP. Woodroar (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think Woodroar has the right procedural posture here; I'd want to see very strong evidence that someone's self-identification was wrong before I fiddled with it (technical jargon there) in a BLP article. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with Woodroar, saying that Anita is a Canadian-American is simply too confusing. It hides the fact that we, the editors, are actually not 100% sure of where she is from, her nationality, and/or her citizenship. If she were born in the USA from Canadian parents, she could also identify as a Canadian-American, her article would read the same, and the difference would not be apparent to a reader. It would even be the same if she was born in India from a Canadian father and an American mother; she could also identify as a Canadian-American and a reader of her article would never get the actual information. To take it to the extreme, she could be born in India from Indian parents, never traveled outside of India, and STILL "identify" as a Canadian-American because she has a bunch of Canadian-American friends and likes their culture. My point is that the term (Country)ian-American can mean so many things that it doesn't communicate as much precise information as we actually have. We KNOW she was born in Canada and we KNOW that she identifies as Canadian-American. So why don't we actually say what we know? i.e. "Anita is a Canadian-born media critic..." and then we can write something in the article like "Anita identifies as Canadian-American". That's really all the information we have. Saying she IS Canadian-American may imply to some readers that she has American citizenship. Why create confusion? Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 20:47, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

But what do you make of Strongjam's citations below? It seems there are a number that refer to her as "Canadian-American." Dumuzid (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

That argument is terrible Hamster. Her identification as Canadian-American is far from a contentious subject, far from confusing, and well sourced in reliable media. Koncorde (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

"Canadian-American" can mean different things, but here it means nationality and the article body already makes that fact clear. Per the sources, it says she grew up in Canada, later moved to America, and identifies as Canadian-American. Basically every source that mentions it says the same. If it ain't broke...--Cúchullain /c 05:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. I added "...was born in Canada..." to the Background section just to lay out everything we actually know. I guess any confusion can now be cleared with the information in that section. I still think that we should move away from the use of Hyphenated American as most other articles in Misplaced Pages are doing. It creates more questions than answers. As an example, check out the article on Albert Einstein. His nationality was a bit more complicated so they went with a precise solution in the lead sentence and went into detail in the rest of the article. But it really isn't that big of a deal for now. As long as it's clear that she was born in Canada, grew up in Toronto, and then moved to the USA. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 20:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Comparing a man who held 7 different nationalities with Sarkeesian is not equivalent. The lead and content is as precise as the sources outline - and anything else is only less precise (or introduces more questions). Koncorde (talk) 02:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Again, "hyphenated American" titles are only deprecated in introductions for ethnicity, not nationality. Including nationality is encouraged. As Koncorde says, Einstein is a much more extreme case to this one, which can be, and generally is, described as simply "Canadian-American".--Cúchullain /c 14:27, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The New Yorker article is unambiguous, Sarkeesian, a Canadian-American of Armenian descent, became the target of a stream of Internet harassment.... I've added the citation inline. — Strongjam (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Also National Post, CBC, Reuters, Washington Post, CTV. — Strongjam (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

What's deprecated is indicating ethnicity in the intro if it isn't relevant to a person's notability, per MOS:BIO. Nationality is included, and it's a bit different as someone can be a national of multiple places throughout their period of notability. In this case, various reliable sources refer to her as Canadian-American, and few if any call her one without the other, which effectively settles the question.--Cúchullain /c 02:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I, like others in this thread, see that the largest set of sources identify her as an Canadian-American, many mention her Armenian extraction (perhaps for the purpose of putting her last name into some context), and few sources explicitly identify her as Canadian, American, or of any specific citizenship. Based on the discussion and points presented here, I see no compelling reason to change this; if numerous sources begin to characterize her nationality in another way, I'd see revisiting this question. Certain there's been no recent development at MOS:BIO to justify a change at this time. BusterD (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

This is a bit off-topic as this discussion already seems to have reached a consensus, but as a matter of principle, just because a lot of sources say that Einstein was German-American (including Encyclopedia Britannica) doesn't mean that his article should read that. Most sources don't delve into the background of their subject as much as they could (maybe for lack of access) and probably just cite each other. Once you start digging into the original source of information for Einstein's nationality, you realize that it's more complicated and that it may not be accurately portrayed popularly. So the Einstein article now accepts that fact and has included all the verifiable information into the article without placing a misleading label on the subject at the very beginning. Just going with whatever most sources say is lazy. Those sources are being sourced by some original source, we should track it down, and update this article accordingly. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 13:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

While I am, of course, all for accuracy, you are verging here on WP:OR. Going with what most sources say might be lazy, but it is, you know, sort of the basis of how this place works. Dumuzid (talk) 14:08, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm confident that we can trust sources like The New Yorker with basic information like this. Again, Einstein is a much more complex case and not especially relevant here.--Cúchullain /c 14:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I find it strange that we might look at the rationale of the Encyclopedia Britannica as if Misplaced Pages is somehow superior, or their statement any less factually correct (Einstein was indeed German born, and died a US citizen - and so was obviously, and most simply, German-American). Actually, it's likely that the EB came to their decision based on recorded facts in reliable sources themselves. In contrast wikipedia balances repeating reliable sources, with the POV push of people who consider Einsteins nationality a point of dispute, or can't get their head around stuff that isn't actually that complicated but that certain people treat as such. That is not to say that the EB is right or wrong or infallible, but that wikipedia can be wrong when it tries to please everyone (or in this case deny something obvious because summarising his nationality is "complicated"...no, not really, it isn't). Koncorde (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

In the case of Einstein, yes it is a bit complicated because he was German born, was "forced" to flee Germany she he then became a Swiss citizen, and then an American citizen, without renouncing neither of the previous ones. Why summarize it with German-American? Anyway, we are way far off topic here. In fact, I have started a discussion in MOS talk page MOS:BIO about this. It would be great to get your views on this and I think that's a better place to do it. Thanks! Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

So you didn't get your desired result by consensus here and you've decided to go to a different forum to muster another consensus. Thanks for linking the new discussion! BusterD (talk) 22:54, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Dude, assume good faith. I was confused on what "Canadian-American" meant in the context of Anita Sarkeesian. This article is now more clear by including the fact that she was born in Canada. However, this discussion raised the other question about how to properly do this and to do it consistently across biographical articles. So I brought up the question in the linked discussion. I didn't try to hide it; I even asked you guys to participate because many here seemed passionate about it. I am not trying to push a solution, just wondering what the procedure is because it was confusing to me in this article. Anyway, I would really appreciate it if you and other editors join that discussion to see if we can at least come up with Pros and Cons. Thanks. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I imagine the frustration is coming from the fact that this seems like a solution looking for a problem that doesn't really exist. I'm not sure anyone else has ever expressed confusion with what "Canadian-American" means at this article, except perhaps trolls trying to make an issue out of Sarkeesian's citizenship, and at this point six other editors have weighed in.--Cúchullain /c 03:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Drive By Whine (← more proof of feminists terrorizing this page)

This page and its talk page is a farce. Feminists are reverting all edits that doesn't favor Anita Sarkeesian and all discussions and comments are being deleted. Misplaced Pages has got to do something about these activist feminists, it's hurting Misplaced Pages's credibility. Alas, this comment will of course be removed swiftly as well. Org.aidepikiw (talkcontribs) 17:39, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Cool story bro. Zero Serenity 18:03, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

And so it continues. 'Cool story bro' adds nothing to this, and neither does changing the title to 'drive by whine' (isn't changing someone else's posts against wikipedia's rules?) The irony is that you're the ones whining and ruining Misplaced Pages.

Org.aidepikiw

You're not going to be taken seriously unless you provide something verifiable. DonQuixote (talk) 18:14, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

People have done that hundreds of times, but everything is swiftly removed. Misplaced Pages is not going to be taken seriously with pages such as this. The bias of this page has been brought up again and again, but I can't even put a POV sticker on the article because Anita's 'listen and believe' army will take it down immediately. As I said, Misplaced Pages is hurting their own credibility by letting pages being taken over like this.

Org.aidepikiw

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