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 view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1. Why is Ukraine listed as the second-largest country in Europe? France is. (Or alternately, Denmark is.)
It's an ambiguous statement, and depends on whether you include non-European territories or not, and whether you include disputed territories or not. The totality of France (which includes French Guiana) is larger than Ukraine, but the European part of France (Metropolitan France) is smaller than Ukraine. Although Denmark is in Europe, Greenland is in North America.
Q2. Kyiv or Kiev?
This is a topic for discussion at Talk:Kyiv. The current transliteration is based on the Ukrainian spelling of the name: "Kyiv" (pronounced "KEE-ev"). The Russian version is "Kiev" (pronounced "KEE-ef") is associated with the Russification of Ukraine. Source:."Slownik geograficzny Krolestwa Polskiego i innych krajow slowianskich". Druk „Wieku” Nowy Świat. 1883. Archived from the original on 5 March 2022.
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Early history para tagged for 2 years as needing quote to verify cite
In the 5th and 6th centuries, the Antes, an early Slavic people, lived in Ukraine. Migrations from the territories of present-day Ukraine throughout the Balkans established many South Slavic nations. Northern migrations, reaching almost to Lake Ilmen, led to the emergence of the Ilmen Slavs and Krivichs. Following an Avar raid in 602 and the collapse of the Antes Union, most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- You can download a PDF copy from... Wondering why we need to put in a quote?
- https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/8750/file.pdf
- ... Don't forget PDF page numbers and actual book numbers aren't the same....looking for book page number I would assume. Pages 39 to 48 cover the period.Moxy🍁 00:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Moxy I have not looked back to see who asked for a quote but perhaps they wanted a quote to support “most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium” Chidgk1 (talk) 17:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
References
- Magocsi, Paul Robert (16 July 1996). A History of Ukraine. University of Toronto Press. ISBN 9780802078209. Retrieved 16 July 2018 – via Google Books.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 December 2024
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Military ranked 6th, not 5th. As per link provided 2600:1700:7D00:A30:C46:9721:AEC4:7DA2 (talk) 23:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:10, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Ukraine is a country in Eastern Europe. It is the second-largest European country after Russia,
and you wonder why wikipedia is begging for payment all the time. half of asia is actually in europe and not east africa, why?????????????? 2600:1700:19E1:D720:5DB3:92D6:A961:AC7D (talk) 15:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- I cannot make sense of your argument. Yes, Europe & Asia are really the same continent, Eurasia, but as per Europe#Contemporary definition,
Europe's limits to the east and north-east are usually taken to be the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, and the Caspian Sea; to the south-east, the Caucasus Mountains, the Black Sea, and the waterways connecting the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea.
See also Boundaries between the continents#Europe and Asia. Peaceray (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)- The real problem is that it says "second largest European country" in the normal text, but uses a footnote to qualify it as being limited to territories within continental Europe. Most readers are going to come away from that with an erroneous idea. Why does it bother with this odd qualified statement that seems at once arrogant and submissive? Why not make the simpler and ndisputable statement that it is the largest country located entirely within Europe?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- The simple solution to handling very specific WP:TRIVIA is to remove it. This specific trivia comes up on the talkpage very often, it just needs to go. We give readers the area, they can figure out a ranking of their own choice. CMD (talk) 02:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Don’t make the reader work Chidgk1 (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, don't present a various subtle nitpicks and expect a reader to work through them. CMD (talk) 13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Don’t make the reader work Chidgk1 (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The simple solution to handling very specific WP:TRIVIA is to remove it. This specific trivia comes up on the talkpage very often, it just needs to go. We give readers the area, they can figure out a ranking of their own choice. CMD (talk) 02:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- The real problem is that it says "second largest European country" in the normal text, but uses a footnote to qualify it as being limited to territories within continental Europe. Most readers are going to come away from that with an erroneous idea. Why does it bother with this odd qualified statement that seems at once arrogant and submissive? Why not make the simpler and ndisputable statement that it is the largest country located entirely within Europe?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Corruption, poverty, and military strength
@Per exemplum: Your version of the lead makes it look like Ukraine is a poor and corrupt country for unknown reasons (the reader will guess that they are internal reasons), with a strong military boosted by external support - the reader may understand that Ukraine poses a threat to Russia. According to MOS:LEAD, the lead section should summarize the body of the article, and the body gives the war as an important reason for ongoing poverty (The war with Russia impeded meaningful economic recovery in the 2010s
) and mentions the broad anti-corruption drive began in early 2023
. The section Ukraine#Military IMHO gives a more balanced impression than just "boosted by international support". For a balanced article (and lead) we'd still have to mention the fact that the Revolution of Dignity was also directed against the high level of corruption under Yanukovich. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is the long-standing wording. I do not think it is a good idea to completely undo this. It still has the lowest GDP per capita in Europe, which I think is certainly notable. This is also not a recent development since it has been in the bottom two since probably the 1990s. It may be possible to reword this to more specifically mention GDP per capita and Corruption Perceptions Index. "It is becoming less corrupt" is vague. I see a slight improvement in CPI ranking but nothing drastic. Mellk (talk) 08:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Ukraine’s growth by three points is one of the best results over the past year in the world,” is what Transparency International said last year about the CPI ranking, but presumably their new report will come out in the next few weeks so we will see what that says. Chidgk1 (talk) 08:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, it has certainly improved over the past year, but it is not clear if this will be a long-term trend or if it is a temporary improvement. For the lead, I think writing this based on performance in the past year alone might fall under WP:RECENTISM. If it consistently improves, then it would be worth mentioning. But at the moment, it is still in the 30–39 range. Mellk (talk) 08:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Ukraine’s growth by three points is one of the best results over the past year in the world,” is what Transparency International said last year about the CPI ranking, but presumably their new report will come out in the next few weeks so we will see what that says. Chidgk1 (talk) 08:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's talk sources. The edit removed the source Measuring Poverty in the Conditions of War in Ukraine which clearly states Ukraine entered the full-scale war in 2022 on a positive trend: a decrease in the poverty rate since 2017, which slowed down only for a year due to the coronavirus crisis. Thus, the previous edit was supported with the source, and the "long-standing wording" now looks like an original research from the wiki editors. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Manyareasexpert Thanks for your comment. I am happy to consider alternative phrasing, although I do believe that this information is WP:DUE due to the reasons mentioned by @Mellk. Also, it is common practice to add such information in leads, as long as it is notable (see, for instance, Somalia for an analogy in a global context).
- As it comes to the military, the budget and equipment have indeed been boosted by international assistance and they would have been nowhere near this level had it not been for the Russian invasion. SIPRI estimated Ukraine's defense budget to be $5.9 billion in 2020 compared to $64.8 in 2024. This, again, to me is notable enough to warrant inclusion. Looking forward to discussing this further. Per Exemplum 16:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I do believe that this information is WP:DUE due to the reasons mentioned by @Mellk. Also, it is common practice to add such information in leads, as long as it is notable
Yes, the current wording - Ukraine has a transition economy and remains one of the poorest countries in Europe, while corruption remains a significant issue - and the new wording can be giving due weight to various aspects, as per opinions collected. But, those participating provided sources for their new wording. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- @Manyareasexpert Apologies, I am getting a little bit lost with how we're trying to proceed here. Would you mind providing the full alternative edit in a separate response to this thread below? That way we can have a clearer idea of the specific parts you want to amend without going back and forth. I am certainly in favor of making it sound as NPOV and as useful for an unfamiliar reader as possible. Per Exemplum 16:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Including @Chidgk1 @Mellk @Rsk6400 to make sure we're all involved. Per Exemplum 16:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Manyareasexpert Apologies, I am getting a little bit lost with how we're trying to proceed here. Would you mind providing the full alternative edit in a separate response to this thread below? That way we can have a clearer idea of the specific parts you want to amend without going back and forth. I am certainly in favor of making it sound as NPOV and as useful for an unfamiliar reader as possible. Per Exemplum 16:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Manyareasexpert I guess you mean the edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1267477936 not that copyedit of mine (unless I made a mistake). Chidgk1 (talk) 16:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are arguments and sources presented in this topic against this revert. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Manyareasexpert I think it would be easier to follow the discussion if we close this discussion, leave corruption for a few weeks until this years report comes out and start separate talk page sections for poverty and military strength Chidgk1 (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Manyareasexpert Actually I don’t have any suggestions about the military but if you or anyone else does it may be clearer to start a new talk page section. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did not understand. Are you saying the current wording is not supported at all? Mellk (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are arguments and sources presented in this topic against this revert. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Poverty in the lead
Currently the lead says “remains one of the poorest countries in Europe” but I would like to change that for the following reasons:
1) the second linked article is dubious as both the population and GDP of Ukraine are uncertain
2) as of course a lot of GDP is military, such as weapons production, comparison with other European countries does not tell us much useful as they are not at war
3) not obvious there are 2 links
How about something like: “There is a lot of poverty in Ukraine.” That makes the link obvious for readers who want more detail. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Poverty is different to GDP per capita. There is also relative/absolute poverty as well as different national poverty lines. It does not seem to be that notably high in Ukraine so probably this is not something for the lead. It may be possible to rephrase this as having the lowest GDP per capita for precision, unless there are plenty of sources that use this exact phrasing when describing the country. Mellk (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
"Ukrainian Voice" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Ukrainian Voice has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 8 § Ukrainian Voice until a consensus is reached. Anonymous 20:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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