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Requests for clarification and amendment

Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (2)

Initiated by Sir Joseph at 19:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Palestine-Israel articles arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Articles part of the ARBPIA arena

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• Articles part of the ARBPIA arena

• Removal of Haredim and Zionism

Statement by Sir Joseph

The article Haredim and Zionism has nothing to do with the ARBPIA arena, or if it does 5%, and it should be removed to clean up those areas under ARBPIA sanctionable spaces. This article used to be edited heavily back in the early 2000's and had some disputes involving some sockpuppets but the article and disputes if any in general do not involve Israel-Palestine and just involve intra-Jewish halacha response to Israel as a Jewish State.

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

This article seems fairly stable. It doesn't seem to be much of a focus of the Israel and Palestine partisan divide that causes so much disruption on Misplaced Pages. Removing the cumbersome discretionary sanctions such as 1RR doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request. If an issue later arises it can always be put back under these sanctions. You can leave it to administrator discretion.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I do understand your position here Amanda. However, Since everyone's here, you could review whether to whitelist this article and also offer the clarification that AE is to be used for the whitelisting of articles. From your comments it does seem as if we are breaking new ground on how an article should be reviewed for if it falls under a certain set of sanctions.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

ARBPIA is broadly construed. Haredim groups that support the PLO and Hamas, zionism. There's not an actual question of why this was put under Arbpia honestly.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, There's not some secret committee that puts articles under sanctions. By the actions of arbcom articles are put under sanctions. ARBPIA for instance use language like "broadly construed". This is every article on wikipedia and every new article created that relates in anyway to the Arab and Israeli conflict. This is whether they are marked or not on the talk page.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

And if you feel an article falls under ARBPIA and someone has violated it AE would be the appropriate location to take it to. ARBCOM members could we trouble you to link the template to make other editors aware of ARBPIA?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, do I think it's ripe for abuse? No. Save for 1RR Sanctions are not placed without prior warning with ARBPIA. Regardless of whether a page is marked or not you can be sanctioned after being warned. In the event that an article is not actually under sanctions you can make that clear at AE or any time after being banned. This article only mentions Zionism but also supporters of Hamas and the PLO. There's not actually an argument that you can make that this is not a part of Arbpia. It has already been dcided what is a part of ARBPIA. Anything that is a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed. Your making an appeal to fear that the system can be gamed. Your alternative could be gamed as well. Gaming the sanctions is a can lead to discretionary sanctions. Instead of hypothetical show where this actually happening so that something can be done.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

If someone was not warned about 1RR they could be blocked for 1rr. Where is this article that was put up by sock?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

So again it's all about a hypothetical but not an issue that is actually happening? If a page does not have this warning on it but it is an ARBPIA article and you have already been warned ARBPIA you can receive discretionary sanctions. If a page is not ARBPIA and it has this warning on it and you receive discretionary sanctions you can use that in your defense. If this actually becomes an issue ARBCOM should do something about it and that's if giving sanctions to those gaming the system doesn't fix it. As far as I can tell this hasn't actually been an issue. When there are actually issues on wikipedia the unpaid volunteer editors of ARBCOM do not need to waste their time on hypothetical issues that others bring to them. The possible negative hypotheticals that could be brought to them are to numerous to calculate. In short, unless it's actually broke they don't need to fix it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

From what you understand? I don't have any further comment here. This is to painful.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Additional Statement by Sir Joseph

I just want to add one more thing, something similar to what I wrote on the Jew case above. How do I know that the ARBPIA template was even added correctly to this article? For all I know some admin assumed it to be in the same sphere as Israel-Palestine and just copy-pasted it. Looking at the original ARBPIA articles, I could not find this article listed. I do think it would be a good idea that when articles are added/deleted/amended/etc. a record is kept, so that when a template is put on the page, we know where to look to find out why, and we can see the reasoning behind it. It could very well be that there was a discussion about this page years back in some archive long gone, but that's neither here nor there (but it is somewhere), but I do ask you to consider that in the future for all ARBCOM cases, when you add articles, to please maintain or track on the talk page of the article the date of the discussion. Thank you. Sir Joseph 18:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Comment after reading Amanda's comment, does being included in the Wikiproject Israel automatically put you under this AE? That doesn't make any sense. I know of tons of articles that are under Wikiproject Israel not under sanctions so I still don't know how this article got placed under sanctions and that's why there should be somewhere it is discussed before something so drastic as placing an article on restrictions occurs. Sir Joseph 01:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't necessarily want a whitelist, I would like to know how this article got included, and how other articles get included and do all project articles get included automatically. Sir Joseph 02:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I just reverted an IP edit to Yom_Ha'atzmaut because I assumed that would be under sanctions. I was surprised to find no such template, so my question still stands. How do articles get put under sanctions? Sir Joseph 15:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with Pluto2012, looking at the article, and the history while it may be a contentious area, it is not something as serious as the IP area and my question still remains, why is this article in the IP sanctions automatically? There has to be a process in place, not every article in WIKIPROJECT:ISRAEL is subject to IP sanctions. This article, for example is stable enough and contrary to Pluto2012's assertions, any conflicts in edits is handled on the talk page. The last edit war on that article was in 2006 if my memory serves me. Putting a disputed tag on an article doesn't mean I think it belongs in the IP area, it just means a fact in the article is under dispute. As for Zero's statement that because it has the word Zionism it must be under IP sanctions, that is also not true. This is not necessarily dealing with the IP conflict. This is dealing with internal Jewish religious issues and how to deal with Zionism. That doesn't bring it to the level of the IP conflict and again, look at the edit history. Sir Joseph 01:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho, and if we can just paste a template on a talk page, don't you think that would be ripe for abuse? If I decide that a page is subject to ARBPIA, then I post it to a talk page then I take you to AE and you're blocked for violating something you never even knew was part of ARBPIA. ARBCOM won't investigate who put the template. The template is on the page. What about removing from the page? My statement still stands. There ought to be a process, in all ARBCOM cases where pages are marked with a template. Who decided that this page is subject to ARBPIA? Maybe it wasn't ARBCOM, I couldn't find the diff. I found lots of WIKIPROJECT:ISRAEL articles not under ARBPIA, should I just tag them with the template? I think that's a terrible idea. Sir Joseph 01:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho, I just found an article that had a template placed on it by a sock blocked user. If someone were warned for 1rr on that article, they would be blocked because nobody would've known that the template didn't being.Sir Joseph 21:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Har Nof had a template put in June by a sock. I found it because I was wondering why it was there. That article has nothing to do with the IP conflict, broadly construed, and indeed, I found that it was just placed there. I removed it, but in this case the article is not heavily edited so it was simple to do. What happens in an article that is edited? After a few weeks or months, that template becomes fact and it becomes a sanctionable article even though it has nothing to do with ARBCOM area. Sir Joseph 00:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, from what I can gather, the sock put the template on and then brought someone to AN and the user got blocked for violating ARBPIA, so it's not hypothetical. We have a user putting on a template and an admin blocking based on that template. Sir Joseph 03:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you're complaining about, EdJohnston blocked a user based on a sock's placement of a template that didn't belong. The sock was in an edit war, placed the template and then reported the other user. He knew how to game the system. I don't know how you can't see that as a problem when there is no official record when articles are placed under sanctions. Sir Joseph 14:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Not every mention of Jerusalem means that the article is under ARBPIA. I don't think EdJohnston was correct when he blocked that user, and he even said that all ARBCOM said with regards to Jerusalem was arbitrated the lead to the article. We should not be having secret articles subject to restrictions. There ought to be a process to how articles get placed under sanctions and "broadly construed" does not mean just mentioning the word "Israel." That is pretty ludicrous. Regardless, you can't have a system where people get sanctioned for something as "broadly construed." Sir Joseph 17:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

But having an entire article placed under restrictions because of that is ludicrous. We are discussing Israel, does that mean that AE is now under 1RR? Certain topics are contentious and need 1RR. But most topics don't need 1RR and if something discusses it tangentially, then I don't think it should change the entire article. And if you look at ARBCOM, you'll see how often they have things brought because of "broadly construed." Sir Joseph 19:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Pluto2012

This articles deals with a very contentious topic in the I-P conflict, which is the anti-zionism of some Jewish communities. Some of them, the Naturei Karta are well-known and even used in the propaganda war between Israel and its ennemies and opponents (eg Iran). Sir Joseph himself added a tag several weeks ago stating the article was disputed. I think it should remain the ARPBIA list. There is no added value to remove this and at the contrary it could be used a a pretext of edit war. Any improvement can be discussed on the talk page. Pluto2012 (talk) 10:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

An article about Zionism is an article about the I-P conflict. I think the argument to the contrary is simply mistaken. Zero 12:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Sean.hoyland

@Sir Joseph:, you have your facts slightly wrong regarding NoCal100's typically hypocritical behavior on behalf of the State of Israel using his All Rows4 sock account. He warned the user on 1 June 2015 here, reported him the same day here, and placed the ARBPIA template on the talk page on 3 June 2015 here as a result of comments at the 3RR report. The edit warring was covered by 1RR, regardless of the presence or absence of the ARBPIA template, because it was about the status of Jerusalem i.e. whether Misplaced Pages can use its neutral narrative voice to refer to places in West Jerusalem as being in Israel. Yes, the sock successfully gamed the system, as has happened countless times (even the ARBPIA discussions are contaminated by evidence presented by socks), but it wasn't dependent on the presence or absence of the ARBPIA template or the notion of the article being a member of a set of 'ARBPIA articles'. It's because, in practice, 1RR has been enforced at the content level, even if it is just one word or sentence that is interpreted as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, despite the ARBPIA restrictions talking about things at the article level. Since the 500 edit/30 day restriction is currently being enforced by editors rather than by software, perhaps that restriction will also be enforced at the content level rather than the article level in practice. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

But you can and do have a system where people are sanctioned for something as "broadly construed". You can and do have a system where an edit war over a sentence that is related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, like the status of Jerusalem, is treated as being within scope of ARBPIA regardless of the article in which the edit war takes place. That seems better to me because it means that the restrictions can be enforced at a finer scale than the article unit. It's often not possible to decide whether something is an 'ARBPIA article' in a repeatable way, but it's very often possible to decide that specific content in an article, and editor actions related to that content, are within scope of ARBPIA. It's usually obvious. Admins, unlike bots so far at least, can usually recognize when something, a sentence, a paragraph, a section, an edit war, is within scope of the ARBPIA restrictions. I agree that not every mention of Jerusalem means that the article is under ARBPIA. If editors could simply refer to Jerusalem as Jerusalem throughout Misplaced Pages these issues would never occur. But if an article says "Jerusalem, Israel" for example and an editor thinks that violates policy, everything that follows from that point will be within scope of ARBPIA and admins are likely to treat it as such. Ed blocked the editor for an ARBPIA 1RR violation. It wouldn't make sense to have a situation where similar edit wars, over the status of Jerusalem for example, something that is clearly within scope of ARBPIA, were treated differently because they took place in different articles. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel_articles: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel_articles: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Looking t the article, I don't see how editing it would affect the actual problem area. DGG ( talk ) 20:19, 26 November 2015 (UTC) .
• I'm inclined to agree with Serialjoepsycho 2 that there seems little chance of a problem occurring if we restore the normal editing environment to this article. If problems do occur then I'm happy for the restrictions to be reimposed by an uninvolved admin following a request at ANI or AE. Thryduulf (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
• I'm no expert on what is or isn't part of this, but I do see where people could see it, but again, it doesn't seem to be an issue. As for whitelisting, I'd rather find a more broad approach so we aren't hearing ARCA after ARCA of please uninclude x article. I dug, and their seems to be no context to the addition. Maybe this is a good job for AE to use discretion on removing the topic areas? (Only throwing a suggestion) -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:54, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
• Decline and kick to AE to use their best judgment. I do not like the idea of a white list at all --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• 'Decline Doug Weller (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Clarification request: GoodDay

Initiated by GoodDay at 15:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

GoodDay arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• GoodDay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Steven Crossin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• here

Statement by GoodDay

Since I've been restricted (in June 2012), a new tool has been added to Misplaced Pages. This tool gives editors the ability to 'Thank' editors for their edits & posts, via a THANK button. My question is - Am I allowed to THANK editors for any edits or posts made in relation to my restriction diacritics? GoodDay (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Response to BMK - the 2 times that I was reported at AE for breaches of this restriction (both situations happened at my talk-page & my now deleted secondary talk-page), the results were a 1-week block & a 1-month block, respectively. I wanted to make absolute certain, a 3rd AE report wouldn't be made on me, merely because I THANKED anybody for making an diacritics changing edit or just posting about diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Clarification - The only editors I would thank, would be those who's edits or posts I happen to agree with. I certaintly wouldn't pester any editor or editors, that I had differences with in the past concerning diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Response to Steven Crossin - There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm not asking arbitrators for 'permission'. I'm asking arbitrators if my restriction covers 'thanking' editors. I'm seeking clarification & nothing more. GoodDay (talk) 05:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Having read over the opinons of arbitrators. It appears that none of them are forbidding me to thank editors in the area-in-question. Therefore, I'll thank editors on my own discretion. Fear not, 1 or 2 thanks per year, is hardly going to cause any disruptions. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

To Thryduulf - FWIW, I'm not under any IBAN. GoodDay (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, that part of my comment is speaking "in general terms", i.e. not about you specifically. Thryduulf (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

To Guerillero - I've no desire to try & influence anyone concerning diacritics. Your's is the first message to suggest penalties, regardless. If arbitrators want to officially or unofficially tighten my restriction via barring me from THANKING editors in this area? then so be it. I appreciate the clarification of this matter & will comply with your ruling. GoodDay (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

To all arbitrators - Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I planned to thank editors who made edits & posts that I agreed with. I wasn't looking to torment anyone. Anyways, I would appreciate it, if this request were closed. GoodDay (talk) 01:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

To GorillaWarfare - This restriction has been in place for 3.5 years, with arbitrators showing no signs of ever lifting or easing it. I think, I've been quite patient about it. I certaintly haven't been frantic, as there's been no f-bombs flying. :) GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

I'm not sure why GoodDay thought it was necessary to bring this here, since he got fairly good advice when he asked the same question on WP:AN#Arbcom remedies a couple of days ago. It's not like ArbCom doesn't have a couple of other things on its plate at the moment. BMK (talk) 02:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I would say that you shouldn't do it, then. If you've under a sanction to avoid diacritics (probably "broadly construed"), then if you make a habit of thanking people for diacritic-related edits, you're not really avoiding the subject, are you? The answer seems pretty clear: stop obsessing about diacritics and find something completely and totally unrelated to do. BMK (talk) 04:13, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

@GoodDay: "I would stay away from the topic area" is not exactly a green light to thank people for their edits in the topic area. As for your discretion - well, to be frank, your lack of discretion concerning diacritics is one reason you are under a topic ban in the first place, so I still think you would be better off turning your back to that subject entirely and doing something else - don't even monitor it for people to thank. BMK (talk) 23:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Steven Crossin

Kinda have to agree with BMK here, GoodDay. While not really objectionable and as the arbs say, there are worse things you could do, I'd encourage you to focus on other things. Probably a better use of your time, tbh. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 05:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

GoodDay: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

GoodDay: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I can think of few things less objectionable than thanking people. Even so, technically, the language of the restriction is "making any edits", and thanks are not edits. Courcelles (talk) 00:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Meh. As a general principle: occasionally thank people if you like their edits, but don't do it with the intent of being objectionable. Spam-thanking people, or thanking people who have asked you not to interact with them, will likely lead to sanctions for disruptive editing. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Euryalus. GoodDay raised this issue at AN - User:BMK, for what I think are good reasons and can be read there, thougt it was a bad idea, and User:Nyttend pointed out that WP:IBAN prohibits it between IBANed (sp?) editors, Doug Weller (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
• I would stay away from the topic area. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I want to further state, that using Special:Thank or another non-editing tool to further a dispute that you are topic banned from will quickly lead to your ban being restored or or any logged or unlogged action in relation to being added to your topic ban. Please do not take our kind advice as a carte blanche to continue your dispute. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• I've commented previously that you (GoodDay) should completely stay away the topic area you were restricted from, and I'm going to reiterate that advice now - let it go. In general terms, people who are topic banned should not be making any edits or logged actions relating to the relevant topic area, and thanking someone does breach an interaction ban. Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Whether or not it's technically allowed, this type of skating right up to the line (if not over it) is not the proper way to handle a topic ban. A topic ban means to stay well clear of the area, not try to game it and try to find ways to shout from the sidelines. Seraphimblade 02:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• I've received quite a few thanks here which are obviously not to be taken literally (for example, someone who wrote an article I deleted). I take it as an acknowledgement, even though it may have been meant as ironic or a mild form of protest. (People in such situations have even given me a barnstar a few times). I think the possibility of use in this manner sufficiently great, that it should indeed be covered by the restriction. DGG ( talk ) 01:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Would I support a sanction based on the use of the thanks tool on a page that falls within the topic ban? No, probably not. But this does strike me as a frantic attempt to participate in the topic area without technically being in breach of a ban, which frankly makes me think the ban was a good decision. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3

Initiated by Zero0000 at 01:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Zero0000 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Zero0000

I'm writing concerning the General Prohibition "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Unfortunately many articles are seeing a lot of edits from IPs and others failing to meet this requirement (many of which are probably unaware of it) followed by reverts by others. Semi-protection would help a lot. My question is: since semi-protection will have no effect on editors who are entitled to edit at all, can semi-protection be applied by involved administrators?

Of course automated enforcement of the prohibition would be the best solution.

Statement by Mz7

I don't think the committee should make any blanket endorsement of involved administrator action. I can envision disputes over which articles fall under the general prohibition, and things can turn ugly if there is an WP:INVOLVED case. Obviously, the reasonability rule still applies—if an involved admin protects a page that any reasonable administrator would also protect, then there shouldn't be any issues (see third paragraph of WP:INVOLVED). But this is a very case-by-case thing, and if there is even a slight possibility of contentiousness (and in this topic area, this might always be the case...), always WP:RFPP. Mz7 (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Would it be possible to create some form of hidden maintenance category that includes all the pages under the restriction, and craft a bot or an edit filter that disallows or automatically reverts and warns users fall under the restrictions? If ARCA is not the right venue for discussing this, we should probably have a community discussion. Mz7 (talk) 19:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rich Farmbrough (PIA3)

It was fairly clear that there would be trouble making this fly. The difference between a 500/30 protection on one article, and the same on a whole topic is one of kind not quantity.

While it is technically feasible to find a solution, it is pretty undesirable to effectively topic-ban 7 billion people - especially given the breadth with which these topic bans are interpreted. It is equivalent to banning all under 60s from parkland, becasue some youth drop litter. (More topical analogies might also spring to mind.)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC).

Statement by Kingsindian

I meant to open an WP:ARCA request for this, but was too lazy and forgot.

• There is no way to consistently apply the General Prohibitions remedy to the entire topic area, and nobody has even tried so far. It is even unclear as to what list of pages one is supposed to apply this to.

• Semi-protection will not take care of the 30/500 requirement, and is trivial to defeat by a moderately determined sockpuppet.

• IP and non 30/500 edits are often benign and useful. See this diff updating the HDI status for State of Palestine. Many others can be given.

I suggest the following, which is explicitly allowed by the remedy. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters. Let the emphasis of the enforcement be on reverts rather than semi-protection, edit filters or blocks. Use semi-protection sparingly and temporarily, in direct response to disruption. Zero0000's proposal about involved admins applying semi-protection (ideally temporarily) seems good to me. The emphasis on blocks makes the most sense, is most consistent and least harmful. It is trivial to undo any bad edits by IPs, inexperienced editors etc. In my experience, just mentioning the magic word WP:ARBPIA3 is enough to "win" any content dispute (the recent flap involving Huldra is an exception rather than the rule; she didn't say the magic word). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I thought we had asked the WMF about automated enforcement mechanisms? DGG ( talk ) 22:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• There are two questions here:
  1. Can involved administrators semi-protect pages in this topic area?
     • I do not think this topic area should be treated any differently than any other with regards to WP:INVOLVED, so no (except as per Mz7). Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
  2. Can the restrictions be enforced automatically?
     • This is not a matter for ArbCom as far as I am concerned. If it is possible (I don't know) then as long as all relevant policies and guidelines are followed then it may be used subject to community consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
• If it gets the thumbs up from BAG, one could use an admin bot to semi-protect all of the pages in the topic area. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Concerning the clarification suggested by Thryduulf in this section, I agree that involved admins should not get involved in any aspect of enforcement, including this. I would like to see a way of enforcing numerical limits that did not rely on individual actions;any way that works is OK with me. DGG ( talk ) 01:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• I have no issues with an administrator semi-protecting a page that falls within these boundaries. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (1RR)

Initiated by NE Ent at 00:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#General 1RR restriction

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• NE Ent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Information about amendment request

• Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment

Statement by NE Ent

The 1RR rule prohibits editors from reverting non-IPs more than once a day and no newbie rule says low edit registered editors can be reverted, so when Huldra reverted new editor Terrible towel7 per the no newbie rule Ks0stm blocked her per the 1RR rule. Please fix the 1RR rule, and then get a clerk to change the wording on {{ARBPIA}} so this doesn't happen again. NE Ent 00:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Ks0stm

Fixing this would be helpful. At first I assumed based on {{ARBPIA}} that the 1RR restriction did not include an exception for non-IP new users, but apparently the restriction against new editors says that it can be enforced through reverts? It's quite confusing the way it's set up right now. Either way, I've unblocked since I now assume that the intent was for such reverts to not be subject to 1RR. Ks0stm 01:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, if it turns out these two restrictions do conflict and Huldra's reverts indeed were not supposed to be subject to the 1RR restriction, I would like permission to RevDel the block out of Huldra's block log, per WP:CRD. Ks0stm 02:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@When Other Legends Are Forgotten: 1. Replies in your own section, please. 2. I may have a relatively low edit count compared to some other editors/admins, but I am by no means "inexperienced" or "bullied". I explained my rationale at ANI, but for reference: "I unblocked because the restriction against new users, which can be enforced "by reverts", was enacted after the 1RR restriction. I therefore think it a more reasonable assumption that the new user restriction supersedes the 1RR restriction." Still, the restrictions do seem to conflict each other, and it is something I would welcome clarification from ArbCom on. Ks0stm 02:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: I would welcome hearing the committee's thoughts on 3RR's applications to this, but again, I assume "by reverts" to give license to surpass 3RR the same as for vandalism. I could be mistaken on this, however. Ks0stm 02:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: The part I quote is at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3#General Prohibition. Ks0stm 02:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, then. We'll see. I still feel like I made the right call to unblock, whether or not my call to block was correct. The waters are too muddy on this for me to feel comfortable leaving that block in place, which I hope is an understandable position. Ks0stm 03:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

ARBPIA only applies to 1RR, but as I understand it, "regular" WIKIPEDIA policy applies to everything else, such as 3RR, which she did violate. The user should have been reported to 3RR or EDITWAR and have been sorted out. Once the revert goes past 3RR, doesn't that mean everyone is in violation of WIKI policy? As I understand it, from 1-3 revert, there is a free pass on reverting an excluded user, once three reverts , then that user should be reported to AIV or the like. Sir Joseph 02:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Comments moved to #Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten

Right, I meant that after 3 reverts, Huldra should not have reverted and should have reported the other user. Both users should have been blocked at this point for 3RR violations. As for your point, I agree. Reading Dan Murphy's comment and others, it is no wonder why certain areas are not welcome anymore. The fact of the matter is that she violated 3RR. That is out of ARBPIA. She was blocked and she should not have been unblocked. Sir Joseph 02:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Ks0stm Here's the text from the ARBPIA ruling: "Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring." The link to that includes 3RR, which would presume to go along with what I wrote above, that 1-3 reverts is disregarded for IP users, after 3RR you need to follow general Misplaced Pages guidelines. It has always been assumed that general Wiki policies apply above those of ARBPIA. Sir Joseph 02:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• @Ks0stm The case itself, and the template itself still have the wording that general Misplaced Pages policies apply. Furthermore, can ARBCOM violate Misplaced Pages policies when Wiki is more stringent? It's one thing for ARBCOM to prohibit 1RR, since Misplaced Pages allows 1RR, but Misplaced Pages does not allow 3RR. There is a procedure in place for 3RR and that is reporting to the admins. In this case, I believe that from 1-3 reverts is free, but after 3, the user should be reported either to admins or to AE, but you still can't revert more than 3 times since Misplaced Pages does not allow it. Regardless, I don't think you should have unblocked before you had a consensus. At the very least the clear evidence of the template is that 3RR is not to be violated. Sir Joseph 02:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• I think giving users carte blanche is a real bad idea, least of which is that 24/7 reverts won't solve anything if the user will not be reported to AE. At a certain point enough is enough and the reverting has to stop and general guidelines come into play. I think this is just more trouble than it's worth. Sir Joseph 03:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• No matter what happens, at the very least, the template needs to be modified so that editors and admins have clarity on what the new rules are. As it is now, IIRC, the template is not clear at all and is the reason why we're in this mess. Sir Joseph 05:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• If we're going to request revdel of wrong blocks, I want my 1RR block from Feb 2014 done as well. If you look at the logs, I was not given any notice of 1RR or DS. The DS notice I was given on my talk page (Archive 2) was given the same time as my 24 hour block. That means that Callanec gave me an illegal block, I would like that cleared from my Wiki record. Sir Joseph 04:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

Due to Arbpia3, Terrible towel7, with less than 500 edits is under ORR. They inserted their own original research, interpreting the meaning of a primary source and effectively created a BLP violation. Huldra was neither in violation of 1RR, 3RR, 6RR, or 20RR, due to the BLP exemption. Terrible Towel was in violation due to their first single edit. The edit warring that followed is enough not to consider any leeway in whether or not they were aware of ARBPIA3 in the first place as they went well beyond a 3RR violation. I hope in the future Huldra will go to the edit war noticeboard instead of continuing on with such an edit warrior but they did nothing wrong. It would probably help to clarify what procedure to take when an ip editor or other user under 500 contributions makes an edit. Are they exempt from revert rules?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

When Other Legends Are Forgotten, please save the wikilawyering. Ex post facto? Is this not the first revert by them? While they say BOP-violation, this is clearly a typographic error and they meant BLP violation. How ever there's no need to take my word for that, why don't we just ask if there's any question to this. Your quoting policy but you make no actual argument as to why this would be exempt under the BLP. Terrible towel did use a primary source. They themselves interpreted it's meaning, which is original research. There's really no question here if this was a BLP violation or not, you have not found a loophole in the part of the policy you quote. Material challenged or likely to be challanged and all that jazz is what this comes down to. The primary source used and the users original research do not meet wikipedias standards of verification. They made the position first that it was a blp violation and later that it was vandalism. It probably had something to do with the wp:pointyness of the users few attempts to discuss it with huldra . I'm not sure your part in this. From my perspective as a neutral observer you seem to have an axe to grind with Huldra. I'd caution you if that is the case, standing before arbcom is probably not the best choices of locations.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: I note your hesitation on the revdel and as I understand from your choice of words you feel as if such a revdel will sully the record of Ks0stm. I'm guessing a paper trail is left behind with revdel? I also note that it is Ks0stm that suggested the revdel. If there is a paper trail can it read that this was a good faith block and they had asked for the revdel personally? Or anything to the effect that leaves it clear that this block was not of any impropriety on the part of them?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten

She WAS reported for 3RR, and initially blocked for that - correctly. Then we had her usual supporters bully and mislead an inexperienced admin into unblocking her. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Moved from #Statement by Sir Joseph, When Other Legends Are Forgotten please comment only in your section. Kharkiv07 (T) 03:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ks0stm:, the newer restriction adds newbie editors to the same category as IP editors, and puts both into a 0RR restriction, which means they can be reverted without violating 1RR. But it does not mean (at least not as worded in the ARBCOM decision) that they can be reverted without limitation. In fact , the wording of the original decision strongly suggests that this is NOT the case, since that decision said that while IPs can be reverted without violating 1RR, they are still subject to regular edit warring rules like 3RR.

@Serialjoepsycho: "BLP" is not some magic pixie dust whose invocation grants you immunity. The BLP exemption makes it clear that "What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.". It really strains credulity to suggest that quoting a person verbatim would be a BLP violation. regardless, this smacks of ex-post facto rationalization. When Huldra made this report - - she was claiming "vandalism " (which it is of course NOT). On Terrible Towel's page, she was invoking the WP:PIA3 restriction.

Statement by Begoon

Wow. What a mess. Huldra was doing the right thing, enforcing Arbcom sanctions and protecting an article. That's quite clear, under the provisions of the "GP", and the partisan wikilawyering about 3RR is irrelevant and unseemly.
Ks0stm thought they were doing the right thing, but the Arbcom sanctions were confusing. Once they realised this, they continued to try to do the right thing by unblocking and coming here, asking Arbcom to help fix it.
Let's hope Arbcom can continue the theme, by doing the right thing themselves: fixing the confusing sanctions, and allowing the unnecessary block notations to be deleted from the record of a 10 year user with a clean block log. Of note is that Huldra does valuable, important work in this difficult, fraught area, where many would not be willing to, so that clean block log is both highly commendable and very important to them - allowing the notations to stand would surely hinder their valuable work, as opponents abuse their existence "in battle". Begoon  07:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thryduulf, you say "Ks0stm's block was though made in good faith and they should not be sanctioned for it, and for the same reason I'm initially reluctant to revdel the entry in the block log" - I agree that the block was a good faith error, caused by confusing ARBPIA/ARBPIA3 wording, and that sanctioning Ks0stm would be ludicrous. I don't think anyone has suggested that.
I don't, however see how the "same reason" makes you reluctant to remove this error from Huldra's block log, particularly given their 10 year clean block log, editing in a troublesome area, where any entry in a block log is likely to be used as a "cudgel" against them in inevitable encounters with tendentious editors. In fact, I'm sorry, I can't parse that "same reason" logic at all. Apologies if I'm being dumb...
It does concern me greatly that an editor doing good work in a difficult area should be left with a stained record, through no fault of their own, when the remedy is simple, and obvious. We should be thanking and encouraging work like this - not potentially hindering or discouraging it. Begoon  10:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

To the arbitrators basically saying "we never revision deleted a block log before, so we don't think we should now", that says a couple of things to me.

• Firstly, you have not considered the particular circumstances here: unclear arbcom restrictions caused an admin to err, and a good-faith user to be penalised for nothing. It's an arbcom error - who else should correct it?
• Secondly, I don't think you were elected to duck difficult issues and cling to some nebulous "precedent", rather to resolve them, and this obvious resolution is in your gift, and requested by both the blocking admin and the blocked user.
• Finally, you don't seem to have understood the particular issues this will cause for this editor in the area they edit (I do hope they continue to do so, after this, but could not fault them for reconsidering...).
  They have tried to explain the difficulties this will cause them. Do you find their concerns invalid?

To the arbitrator who has opined that they have no issue with this simple, obvious remedy - thank you, not for the first time. Begoon  00:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian

This is a rather simple request. The General Prohibition WP:ARBPIA3 remedy obviously supersedes all other remedies. It explicitly states that the remedy may be enforced by reverts. One only needs to update the text of ARBPIA template to match it. Guerillero's proposed text seems ok to me. For Huldra, in the future, you may want to use the magic word "WP:ARBPIA3" in your edit summaries, to instantly get a "win" (example of me doing it is here, and WOLAF here). The wikilawyering by WOLAF, arguing that Huldra should be reblocked, is truly disgusting; I will not comment on it any further. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero and Salvio giuliano: May I suggest that the template have a wording which suggests that the editor (who is reverting the IP/editors with less than 30/500), link to WP:ARBPIA3 in the edit summary? It is a non-binding, simple suggestion that would save a lot of trouble, and makes it clear to the IP/editor as to why they are being reverted. This would both avoid WP:BITE to genuine newbies and give a clear direction to trolls/socks that they are wasting their time, as well as a pointer to uninvolved admins like Ks0stm who don't know about this. (See my examples above). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC) Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero: To clarify, I am simply suggesting that the remedy include the wording in addition to the fixing of the wording you mentioned before. That would just serve as a public service announcement, kind of like warning signs on cigarette packs. Of course the wording of the template needs to be fixed, I am all in favour of that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I myself have a clean block log, and I kind of understand Huldra's point. I have never been harassed like she has, so I will defer to their judgement about whether it will be used in the future. If ArbCom is concerned that this will set a precedent, I don't see any grounds for this. This is a very unusual situation concerning a very unusual remedy concerning a very toxic area. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

For the record: I do not want any sanctions against Ks0stm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ...we all do mistakes, and he did unblock me very soon afterwards, and apologised. Also, for the record, I *did* report the "new" editor to the vandal board. (If anyone checks, you will see that what they tried to add to the article was not actually supported by the sources. So IMO it was both a BLP-violation, in addition to ARBPIA3 violation.)

However, I would *really* like to see my block-log wiped clean. User:Thryduulf: I think the gloating here would be very disheartening to any editor. Please rev-del my block-log....and then we can all move along, Huldra (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade: The block has been, and will be used against me, again. Guaranteed. (I edit in a .....rough neighbourhood… there are always plenty of new editors like “When Other Legends Are Forgotten” around.)

Does not this come under Non-contentious housekeeping? I know one thing: If this block-log stands it will make me deeply regret that I removed the BLP-violations, like I did. And also I will never remove BLP-violations again, when I risk filling up my block-history. It is as simple as that. I repeat; this is all very disheartening. Huldra (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Kingsindian: when using TW, (which I mostly used for revering the BLP, as it is quick), then we don´t get an opportunity to have an edit-line. I did try (and thought I had) said it was a BLP-violation in the first revert.

User:DGG : I don´t understand you. If the discussion here ends with concluding that the block can be rev-delled, and it is, well then, wonderful! That the discussion remains open here, does not worry me.

And that several of you have had, and live quite easily with wrong blocks is a bit different from my situation. None of you edit in the IP area. To be blunt: I don´t think you know what it is like. I know admins and arb.commers can be harassed and threatened, but I have been more or less systematically targeted for 5 years now, from Grawp, his copy-cats, and, if I can judge from their political views: Kahane supporters. (Typically people who admire people like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir: not nice people.) So I get this if I comment on AN/I, or this, this or this during normal editing. You can wade through my log-page, if you like. Again: this will be used against me, again. Guaranteed. Please do not make my editing-life more difficult than it already is. Huldra (talk) 00:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by LjL

Some people above say that WP:3RR restrictions still applied, but this seems like a clear case where they don't per WP:3RRBLP, and Huldra did in fact mention she was reverting a BLP ("bop") violation in her first revert's summary. Furthermore, she stated she was under the (most probably correct) impression that the editor she was reverting was a WP:SOCK of a blocked editor, which is of course another exception to 3RR.

Therefore, given there was in fact no misbehavior at all on Huldra's part, I not only support the unblock, but I second the request (which actually comes from the admin who originally blocked her) to strike the block from her otherwise 10-year clean block log. LjL (talk) 00:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Thryduulf and Seraphimblade: I might misunderstand something, but why do you seem to think that a revdel of the block would reflect badly on the blocking admin (any more than a note would, anyway)? Having two blocks in the block logs, even if one of them serves as a clarification of the previous one, is surely not the same in the eyes of the editor mistakenly blocked as having a genuinely clean block log - which she deserves, as I think we agree she has done nothing wrong (by the way, I think she did report the matter to a board, possibly WP:AIV, so she did her "duty" in that respect, too, though I don't have a diff and you should ask her about that). LjL (talk) 02:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Slakr

As a heads up, at one of my usual haunts, WP:AN3, I was already assuming 1RR/3RR exceptions for reverting 30/500s in response to this remedy, as this seems self-evident and logical given a lack of active technical enforcement alternatives (e.g., no edit filter or new usergroup+page-protection option). As such, I had already made changes to {{Editnotice IP 1RR}} toward the beginning of this month with that assumption in mind so that it also reflected that it's an exception to 1RR to enforce the remedy. I only stumbled upon this now, but given the input here, I'm assuming that's what everyone's agreeing with anyway, but should Arbcom believe differently, feel free to either ping me to update it or obviously just update it with whatever wording's appropriate. :P --slakr 00:51, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Arbitrator views and discussion

• There are two questions here: how do past cases interact with previous cases and how far can one go when enforcing our new General Prohibition. I am going to tackle each one individually.

  From everything that I have seen as an arb and as a clerk, newer arbcom decisions overrule older decisions when they conflict (lex posterior derogat priori for you legal nerds). Normally this involves striking text that conflicts. However, the 1RR as it stands is such a convoluted mess that this is impossible. If we were going to reform it, which I think we should, the remedy should be no more than a few lines. Something like When not impeding the enforcement of the General Prohibition, editors are limited to one revert per page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict per day. Editors who violate this 1RR restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. sounds the best to me.

  As for how to enforce the new GP, I think, as the drafter who voted against it, that This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters. pretty much gives any use a unlimited authority to revert someone who is violating it. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

  • I have no issue with a rev delete --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Kingsindian: While that is a quick fix, and a decent one, I once spent a month working for a retired diesel mechanic who had a classic Western Pennsylvania last name. He always liked reminding me and the other guys who I worked with that he didn't care if we messed up. What he cared about was that we didn't "pass the buck" and owned up to our mistakes. I think that arbcom needs to adopt the same philosophy. Quick fixes pass the buck onto the AE admins to effectively rewrite our remedies, in an unwritten fashion, so that they work together. We can fix this quagmire, why shouldn't we? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• My take on this is is that if someone is enforcing the general prohibition then 1RR does not apply. If the edit being reverted would be considered good or potentially good if it was made by someone who was not a new user then 3RR does apply. In this case the edit was original research and possibly a BLP violation, so there was no possibility of it being accepted regardless of who made it and so I see it as exempt from the 3RR too. However whenever anyone finds themselves getting close to or exceeding 3 reverts they absolutely report the matter at ANI or the edit warring noticeboard so that other editors can verify their interpretion and block as necessary. I also support Guerillero's suggestion of allowing new users to be blocked if violate the 1RR even for a first offence. Ks0stm's block was though made in good faith and they should not be sanctioned for it, and for the same reason I'm initially reluctant to revdel the entry in the block log (I am open to having my mind changed about this however) but I have no problem with a very short clarification block if Huldra desires. Thryduulf (talk) 09:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Seraphimblade regarding the revdel - it's not about reflecting badly on anyone. WP:REVDEL#Log redation states "Log redaction (outside of the limited scope of RD#2 for the move and delete logs) is intended solely for grossly improper content, and is not permitted for ordinary matters; the community needs to be able to review users' block logs and other logs whether or not proper." This block was not "grossly improper" and there is nothing libellous or offensive in the summary, meaning there is no need to hide that this good faith mistake was made. Thryduulf (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
• For the purpose of applying 3RR (and, obviously, 1RR as well), reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned or blocked users does not count as a revert. Huldra's actions were not in violation of the restriction and the editor should not have been blocked. We should amend the restriction so that it doesn't create similar problems in future and here's my proposal: clear vandalism of whatever origin and edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. Salvio 12:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• I wouldn't support revision deleting block log entries except in the exceptionally rare case that the block log message contained private or sensitive information. If a block was mistaken, a notation to that regard will serve. Other than that, I think it's been pretty well said by my colleagues above. Seraphimblade 02:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
  • @LjL: I didn't say anything about "reflecting badly on the blocking admin", and it has nothing to do with that. The presumption is always in favor of transparency and not hiding things that happened just because they were in error. I see no reason here to deviate from that. Huldra's block log is clean as things stand right now; the blocking admin unblocked with a clear statement that the block was erroneous and should not have been placed to start with. There's no need, from there, to hide the fact that it ever happened at all, or really to take any other action whatever. Seraphimblade 16:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Guerillero's suggested modification of the remedy. But the usual course for mistaken blocks is a clarifying entry on the log, and it is sufficient in this case. If we revdel it, everything here would still remain, so I do not see what the revdel would accomplish. DGG ( talk ) 01:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• I think it makes sense to add an exemption to the 1RR remedy that allows people to revert editors who are not allowed to be editing. I also agree that any action against Ks0stm would be unnecessary, as it quite clearly was a good-faith attempt to enforce a remedy. I'm not terribly keen to revision-delete Huldra's block log—we have been asked to hide block log entries for unjustified blocks in the past, and I don't believe we've ever granted them. Block logs are simply logs of past blocks, warranted and otherwise; they are not meant to be some sort of badge of honor, nor are they meant to be an at-a-glance record of a user's behavior. I don't have a clean block log simply because of my own error a few years ago, but I don't think it's ever once been used against me. GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed/ We do need to add such an exemption. How about Salvio's "l: clear vandalism of whatever origin and edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure may be reverted without restriction."? Doug Weller (talk) 14:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Doug. NativeForeigner 23:14, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms

Initiated by JzG at 19:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• SageRad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• wuerzele (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• SageRad

Statement by JzG

There was some discussion as to potential ambiguity in the scope of the topic ban, stated as "all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed". SageRad raises an interesting edge case: agent orange. Technically, I think this would be classed as a chemical weapon. Its components are 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, both of which are clearly agricultural chemicals. The harm caused by agent orange appears to be primarily due to contamination with dioxins, which are not, themselves, agricultural chemicals.

At the risk of stirring a hornets' nest (or at best tilting at windmills), it would seem to me reasonable that SageRad would be allowed to edit the articles on agent orange and dioxins, but should not edit the articles on 2,4,5-T or 2,4-D. That would seem to me to be a reasonable interpretation of the topic ban, given that 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D are IMO not especially controversial, so sufficiently distanced from glyphosate, Monsanto and GMOs, the true locus of dispute. Clearly, however, if he were to pitch in and do so without clarification, it might be perceived as a breaching experiment, so he has, wisely, sought clarification. I do not think the Talk page in question is going to yield that clarification any time soon, so I bring it here for more formal consideration.

I believe it would be pragmatic, just and fair to allow SageRad to edit these articles partly on the basis that otherwise it would be hard to find any article on a topic of interest to the environmental movement that was out of scope, and partly because Misplaced Pages's justice is intended to be reformative, not retributive, and I think this would offer an are of editing where SageRad could be productive, where he is interested and knowledgeable, and where he could establish a reputation for conflict-free editing which would, in time, restore his honour.

I'd also like to ask that SageRad's comments below be considered as privileged, i.e. exempt from the topic ban, but would counsel caution until that's clarified. It is notable that some sanctioned editors are already attracting unwelcome attention due to talk page and meta-commentary in various venues, I do 'not think SageRad is one of these and I have absolutely no wish to make things worse. Guy (Help!) 19:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: It's also pretty clear that Monsanto is core to the dispute, so edits like might be more problematic even though they do not actually relate to GMOs or agricultural chemicals, other than in the involvement of the one company which, more than any other, acts as a focal point for the righteous anger of the anti-GMO and anti-pesticide lobby.

So: I think the scope is unclear in that it does not include a key subject within the original dispute and does include things that are not really at issue within the original dispute. Guy (Help!) 18:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wuerzle: I asked about SageRad because he asked the question. My question is about scope. The second example per Addendum above is another example of an edge case, this time an edit which isn't included but people would probably think it should be. The proposal at the foot of this discussion seems to me to be heading towards the somewhat revised which I think several people would accept as a more accurate reflection of the locus of dispute. I could go on but there's no real point - people who assume I am evil will continue to do so whatever I say. Believe it or not, I am actually trying to do the right thing here. Guy (Help!) 22:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by SageRad

Well, i'm finally able to write a statement here. I know the terms of the topic ban and i abide by them. I won't edit about agricultural chemicals or GMOs. Simple as that. I've been abiding by that. Agent Orange is not an agricultural chemical, and on that article i was just tying up one edit to include photo-essays based on a discussion that had built consensus over the last month or two. That's all.

I've been abiding by the topic ban, not editing on agricultural chemicals or GMOs. I've never even been that interested in editing about GMOs anyway. Glyphosate was the main article of any real scientific substance that i edited in the topic area, and it's nice to see how the Sturm und Drang continues in my absence. It comforts me to see a data point that i was not the sole source of any conflict there. It feels about the same when i take a glance on the talk page there, but of course i recognize the topic ban. It's the realpolitik here. I think the topic ban definition is clear enough. Let's call it a day. We've been through enough with this.

If it's an agricultural chemical, i won't edit it. Even if it's phosphate fertilizer. But like Mark Bernstein said, farms use water but i'd feel free to edit about water if there was any reason to, because water is used in 10,000,000 ways, not primarily agriculture. Many pesticides contain some chlorides, even sodium chloride. But i've read the fascinating book called Salt which is about the cultural history of salt in human society, and if i felt like editing about salt to expand that article, i wouldn't feel inhibited just because salt is a trace ingredient in some pesticide mixtures. I hope that's clear enough, and i hope it is alright as an interpretation of "agricultural chemicals and GMOs". If it's a chemical for which a primary use is in agriculture, i would not edit on it. If it's something tangentially used on farms among other places, like diesel fuel, for instance (it runs tractors but it also runs everything else on the planet) then i would feel ok to edit on it. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for taking your time to consider this. SageRad (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

SageRad (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by ScrapIronIV

I will quote from the case decision: "SageRad is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."

Whether for military use, or otherwise, Agent Orange is clearly an agricultural chemical. It is defined on the article page as an herbicide and defoliant. It does not even need to be "broadly construed" make that determination. Mixing two herbicides to make a third type of herbicide does not make it stop being an herbicide, and herbicides are agricultural chemicals. Scr★pIron 20:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Looie496

I urge ArbCom not to fall into the futility of trying to micromanage remedies. The remedy is stated as precisely as it needs to be. And JzG should leave efforts to help SageRad to other editors. Looie496 (talk) 20:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I will further note that the statement by Wuerzele below massively violates his/her topic ban. I have informed him/her of this and urged that the statement be removed. Looie496 (talk) 11:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by AlbinoFerret

I am not involved in the topic area but took part in the recent arbcom case on GMO's. The request for clarification is a good one. The name of the case was "Genetically modified organisms" and the scope should match the area of the topic that was discussed, namely Genetically modified organisms and topics that relate to it. The scope should not be widened to include any chemical that can possibly be used on plants, it should be chemicals as related to genetically modified organisms. After all water is a chemical, its sprayed on plants, even GMO's. Should Water be included? Perhaps if the article references uses with GMO's. But not about a river, or a lake, or a water cannon used by the military. Agent orange is a military chemical, not a general purpose agricultural chemical. It is a herbicide, not used on GMO's, and from what I can tell not used in farming. I urge the arbs to clarify the scope of these banns in that they are within the scope of GMO's. AlbinoFerret 23:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I will also point out that JzG's bad behaviour in this area is continuing from the time of the case . He was excluded from the findings because of not being a named party, something that should be looked at again. His edits are not that of a careful admin in a contentious area seeking consensus before making large changes. He should know better. AlbinoFerret 23:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that WP:BANEX should allow the banned editors to post here, per banex "asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban." is allowed. Since arbcom gave the ban, I can think of no better place for clarification than the noticeboard set up for that exact purpose. AlbinoFerret 13:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The current wording of "agricultural chemicals" is sufficient. The question is, are chemicals not used for agriculture, or " the practice of farming, including cultivation of the soil for the growing of crops and the rearing of animals to provide food and other products." covered under this ban? Agent orange is a military chemical that to my knowledge has no agricultural use. If so can an arb please point to me where in the case this was brought up and the evidence/FOF presented that supports including non agricultural chemicals? AlbinoFerret 21:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

These are chemicals made by Monsanto, are they under the ban?

• polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) (in lubricant for electric motors, might be on a farm)
• saccharin (it replaced a natural sweetener, from a plant raised on farms)
• aspartame (it replaced a natural sweetener, from a plant raised on farms)
• polystyrene (you can grow plants in a Styrofoam cup)
• How about Chemical weapons (they might kill plants and livestock to)
• Agent orange (its another chemical weapon, it is not an agricultural chemical.)

This is the tip of the iceberg, and a path to a punitive slippery slope. Topic banns should be based on the case evidence and behaviour discussed in a case. Not on what could be or what might be or fears of those who engaged in a battleground that caused the case to happen. AlbinoFerret 01:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Capeo

AlbinoFerret, the case also revolved heavily around a specific herbicide hence the addition of "agricultural chemicals". Given that I can't see how SageRad's TB wouldn't include another herbicide whose two components are agricultural herbicides. That said, you're not wrong about the wording of the TB being less than ideal. I said as much on the PD talk page. Capeo (talk) 23:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Simply adding "commercially produced" before "agricultural chemicals" would get closer to what I assume was the point of the topic bans. Water is a chemical. I don't believe the intent of the TB would to exclude water. The chemicals involved in photosynthesis? Or animal metabolism? Arguments could made for either. Silly arguments but I'd think avoiding silly arguments is the whole point. Capeo (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

In actu, "GMOs, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them" all broadly construed covers everything. Capeo (talk) 19:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, no, Trypto needs not do any such thing. It's about clarifying an existing TB. Nothing is being re-litigated here. You've already pursued the proper avenues of appeal. Let them run their course and in the meantime just abide by the TB. Your statement, strictly speaking, breaks your TB yet again as it doesn't really apply to asking for clarification or is it an appeal. Capeo (talk) 20:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Arbs, any other admins looking on, can someone get across to DrChrissy that they are indeed currently under a topic ban. Aside from already being at AE for blatantly breaking it well after it was abundantly clarified they're now going after an editor here for simply attempting to do what this board is meant to do. Capeo (talk) 21:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by MarkBernstein

Contrary to the opinions expressed by some editors here, it is entirely reasonable that, if ArbCom is going to contrive specialized topic bans, those topic bans be clear and unambiguous. I hold a Ph.D. in chemistry, and I do not know what they intended to mean by the phrase "agricultural chemical". Is it a chemical that is used by farmers, or a chemical that impacts plant growth? It presumably is not meant to be a chemical derived from plants, but that, too, is a plausible interpretation. Is water an agricultural chemical, or is the intended meaning limited to commercial products?

Members of ArbCom will recall fondly the questions raised by the meaning of "gender-related controversy" in the Gamergate decision. Those active in AE2 are, of course, intensely aware that the language of the topic ban in Gender Gap Task Force has been sufficiently problematic that several arbitrators now wish to withdraw that decision.

Rather than reaching for the broadest construction, a better approach might specify chemical products of the agricultural divisions of Monsanto, Dow, and Dupont.

Vague topic bans simply invite opposing editors to game the system to procure the inevitable and desired indefinite blocks; they increase disruption. Perhaps that is ArbCom’s goal here, but otherwise, it is entirely reasonable to expect that topic bans be clear. MarkBernstein (talk) 00:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Wuerzele

(edit conflict) Arriving here "late", ironically, as I was the first to edit Talk:Agent Orange after the 11 December arbcom decision. I dont know the arb com process and nobody alerted me of this page, not even fellow editor SageRad who edited Agent Orange after me.

I attempted to tie up unfinished consensual business from >1 month ago, finalizing which of the 3 photojournalism refs suggested by CFCF to add, in order to replace one that Keilana had removed as 'poor source' and which SageRad had reinserted twice. I had stepped in on 14 November 2015 , ie one month before the arb com decision to mediate between the parties which is contained in this section.

• I posted my suggestion on the talkpage 01:10, 16 December 2015(→‎Removal of Daily Mail article: CNN or/and AlJazeera source
• King reverted my talk page post immediately 02:24, 16 December 2015 Remove post by topic-banned editor without reading the talksection, as became evident later on.
• Sage renamed the section and wrote 'ok', 03:14, 16 December 2015 (→‎Including photojournalism in article: Sounds good. Let's do it.)
• King also reverted Sage after just 1 hour 04:33, 16 December Remove post by topic-banned editor.) arriving at 2RR
• Sage restored his comment 11:30, 16 December 2015 Sorry buddy but this is not in the scope of the GMO case. Don't delete other people's comments. That's not ok.)
• Sage restored my Talk comment. 11:39, 16 December 2015 ((→‎Including photojournalism in article: Oh look. KoA also deleted another user's comments besides mine. Who put KoA in charge of the world?)
• Sage inserted refs 11:56, 16 December 2015 (→‎Further reading: Add photojournalism section to "Further reading" section as per talk page.)here.
• ScrapIronIV reverted Sage with antivandalism tool Twinkle .
• NE Ent reinserted the CNN ref Revision as of 01:18, 18 December 2015 (photojournalism per talk page discussion).
• King reverted NE Ent (=3RR) Revision as of 01:29, 18 December 2015 (Editors were topic banned prior to the recent discussion, so best for us avoid reinserting their edits at this time.) again making a false claim because the "recent discussion" was clearly before the arbcom decision.
• King hatted Sage's and my Talk comments 02:01, 18 December 2015 (→‎Including photojournalism in article: comment) and posts a reprimand at NE ent to "refrain from inserting content by the topic-banned editors that occurred after their topic ban. If you check the article history, the edits have now been removed twice from the article specifying this". Aside from the sentence being ungrammatical (inserting that occurred?) it is again factually wrong as the content was decided upon BEFORE the Arbcom decision
• NE Ent posted a comment 02:39, 18 December 2015 (→‎Including photojournalism in article: Consensus is for adding). Irony no2: NE Ent had checked not only the "article history", but also read the talk page and realized that a group of 4 editors decided to add the ref (even if 2 of them voiced this in an area that KOA considers GMO topic banned, it was 2+1=3 for adding the ref!)unlike KOA. And that edit stands as of now. (KOA never apologized for this)

Irony 3: It never occurred to me that the ARbCom decision would be about all existing agricultural chemicals. Proof: go back to the very first page, it was me that WIDENED the topic from GMO (where I was not even active) to GMO related chemicals, in particular glyphosate and 2,4D which are indispensable for GMO crops, because engineered to resist it.

The committee MUST "clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information" (per filing instructions of this section)

GMO core pages

due to arbcom's sloppy handling of the GMO case, there are numerous open questions. i made a 660 word comment on the arbcomdecision talk page on 11/14/15, a page that over a month became filled by walls of text (as this one is poised to be, because the same editors are doing the same here, no word limit exists just teh advice to "be succinct"), noisy like to an echo chamber essentially without interactions with arbcom (3 or 4 arbitrators posted) to reply or resolve issues.

the first, most pressing issue should be to exactly outline the scope.

I suggest that the following WP articles absolutely be covered as WP GMO articles

1. Bt cotton
2. Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety
3. Enlist Weed Control System‎‎
4. Genetically modified bird
5. Genetically modified crops
6. Genetically modified fish
7. Genetically modified food
8. Genetically modified food controversies
9. Genetically modified insect
10. Genetically modified maize
11. Genetically modified organism
12. Genetically modified soybean
13. Genetically modified tomato
14. Gilles-Éric Séralini
15. Glyphosate
16. Golden rice
17. March Against Monsanto
18. Monsanto Canada Inc v Schmeiser
19. Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms
20. Séralini affair‎‎
21. Syngenta
22. Vani Hari
23. Kevin Folta

--Wuerzele (talk) 05:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

pages not in the majority about GMO-crops and /or agricultural chemicals

the following pages touch on an aspect of the pages above, but are in the majority not about the arbcom case, so out of the scope.

1. Agent Orange- a herbicide, but no connection whatsoever to GMO's -mostly a)of historical interest b) an env contaminant with epigenetic significance c) a Vietnam War biological weapon. I thank JzG's comment explaining his position on Agent Orange; I think he sees this point like i do.
2. pesticides other than 2,4D and glyphosate]], namely herbicides, fungicides, insecticides and other biocides, which per EPA includes antimicrobials. Organophosphates have nothing to do with the GMO case, neither the neonicotinoids.
3. agrochemicals -aside from glyphosate and 2,4D and Enlist Duo above I can not think of any others that are specific/ indispensable for GMO. It makes no sense to ban fertilizers like Ammonia, or ground spread like lime etc
4. Federation of German Scientists: recently Alexbrn warned prokaryotes on his talkpage User_talk:Prokaryotes#1RR not to further edit this site which he felt had GMO-related content only because the group awards an annual Whistleblower Prize, which went to Seralini this year. Yet Alexbrn reverted significantly here by removing a source and replacing it with an opinion piece with tendentious content, violating NPOV ( teh other source should have remained for balance)-- in large part the site has NOTHING to do with GMO.
5. Monsanto- it produces GMO's yes, but in the majority ?
6. Monsanto legal cases: most are not about GMO's, but about PCB's,
7. Genetic engineering: this describes the general technique to make a GMO, used in microbes, Mammals, Fish, Invertebrates, none of which have to do with the arbcomcase, only genetically modified plants, GMO crops and GMO food.
8. Organic farming - not using GMO crops is one aspect but certainly NOT teh majority of the topic
9. Polychlorinated biphenyl‎- no GMO-agr chemical content
10. precautionary principle

pages unclear

1. Monarch (butterfly) yes, evidence of harm by GMO crops is one aspect , but in the majority of teh page? Why shouldnt I be allowed to add a photo or any other detail that has nothing to do with GMO crops? --Wuerzele (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Questions

1. Looie496 accused me on my talk page of violating topicban by posting the above here on this page! He doesn't say why, yet admonishes me to read instructions. is he right, arbcom members, DGG, Guerillero? is he not? and why ? should he not strike his comment ?--Wuerzele (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
2. Guerillero, Looie496 accused me on my talk page of violating the topic ban by posting here on this page. Is he correct in that ? i would like to know. can you please answer? i read your post which mentions a traveling circus ( ? I dont know what you mean by that) but you did not reply to this question.--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
3. DGG thanks for your comment but i was misunderstood: does my posting here on this page to clarify eh scope violate a topic ban , or does it not ?--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
4. JzG why did you address only SageRad in this clarification request? It certainly affected me too, as I edited Agent Orange before him and Sage reacted to my post as demonstrated in the section of diffs above.(talk) 20:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
5. JzG you just posted a message named "reply" but you didnt reply to this question (and kindly ping me when you address me).--Wuerzele (talk) 23:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
6. JzG is your clarification request about more than Agent Orange? It looks unclear to me. Thanks.--Wuerzele (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
7. JzG you just replied that your clarification request is about clarifying scope in general. Then why did you not inform all parties ? --Wuerzele (talk) 23:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
8. Seraphimblade thanks for engaging. first can you tell me if my posting here to get clarification on the scope violates the topic ban or not ?
9. Second, please look at my lists above: what do you think about PCB's, agent orange, ammonia, John Deere, lime, precautionary principle etc. are they part of the arbcom decision? you see what I mean? someone has to decide which articles need to be tagged, so we must be concrete.
10. lastly, do you think it is ok that only sage rad was informed that there is a scope discussion here? doesnt it clearly affect all parties of the the GMO case proceeding? thank you for your time.--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Minor4th

I have not read any other comments, so this is totally off the cuff. I would not like to see SageRad's edits on Agent Orange be the reason for further sanctions, but an argument can be made that the article is within the scope of her topic ban because: 1. its active ingredient is an herbicide, and 2. it was manufactured by Monsanto.

This kind of ambiguity is going to come up time and again, and the arbs should have been a little more careful in drafting the PD's. On the other hand, I don't know why SageRad would push it by editing the article- he should leave everything even tangentially related to the topic area for a while. Minor4th 02:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Just add Monsanto to the topic bans and that should cover it. We don't need to tiptoe around this. Minor4th 20:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

Are we already at the point of needing clarification? Sigh. Do we know whether SageRad or any of the other editors who were topic banned really want to edit about these chemicals? Does ArbCom have the scientific expertise to really make these distinctions? Perhaps you should just point out "broadly construed", advise that testing the boundaries is imprudent, and decline to parse the chemistry any further. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero: about possible revisions to the wording. It needs to include the phrase "agricultural biotechnology" that is in the DS (see yet another discussion at the Noticeboard TP), and in my opinion, that negates any need to mention companies, because the companies are obviously in the agri biotech field and "broadly construed" applies to them just as much as it applies to persons (and let's not go listing person categories too!). I think there is a problem with Capeo's idea of "commercially produced agricultural chemicals" because that gets into fertilizers and preservatives, ad infinitum.

But "pesticides and related chemicals" is an improvement indeed (although I'm sure someone is going to whine about whether or not water is "related"). So, I suggest: all pages related to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology, or pesticides and related chemicals, broadly construed (with "organisms" changed to "plants" in DrChrissy's case). How about that? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@DrChrissy: You seem to forget that this is the existing language, and it was intended to allow you to edit about animals. If we make it "organisms", as for the other affected editors, you will be prohibited from editing about GM animals. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, for what will be the last time, I am reminding you that I am not proposing anything new about your topic ban. It is the existing wording. You have to wait a year before asking ArbCom to consider lifting the topic ban, so there is no point in asking me why the topic ban was imposed. You are digging yourself into a hole, and you need to drop it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wuerzele: Although I realize that you did not ask me, I'm pretty sure that Looie was saying, correctly, that although you are free to ask about your topic ban, you should not be making proposals about how content is to be treated for editors generally, as in your lists of pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The more that I think about this, the more I think that the wording of the case decision and the topic bans should be left as it is, for now. The important thing is simply to make it very, very clear to the topic-banned editors that "broadly construed" means what it says, and that it is a very bad idea to try to test it or to comment about it from a distance. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero: @Seraphimblade: @Thryduulf: @Doug Weller: I see that each of you is considering a wording change involving "commercially produced agricultural chemicals". Please let me remind you of my comment a short way above, that has the green font in it. "Commercially produced agricultural chemicals" would include fertilizers, food preservatives, and on and on. The more specific phrase "pesticides and related chemicals" works better – and better still, I think, would be to leave the wording alone and just remind editors that "broadly construed" means what it says. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent (GMO)

Agent orange is in Category:Auxinic herbicides which is a sub-cat of Category:Herbicides which is a sub of Category:Agricultural_chemicals , so it's reasonable to say the topic ban would apply Given the AC/DS and 1RR restrictions also apply to agricultural chemicals, and there are, for example, 100 pages in Category:Pesticides (another subcat), while the existing scope is sufficient to minimize disruption related to GMO article editing, it does appear to be unnecessarily broad. NE Ent 02:36, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero: The natural language "and" is actually ambiguous and derives its meaning from context; while Karen Carpenter was no doubt feeling down on the union (${\displaystyle \cup }$) of Rainy Days and Mondays, the narrator searching for Love Potion No. 9 is only going to be successful finding Madam Rue's pad at the intersection (${\displaystyle \cap }$) of "34th and Vine." While I understand frustration with editors arguing about the edges of topic bans, the greater issue here is the scope of the 1RR and AC/DS: while useful as a tool for managing disputes such restrictions do impeded the normal editing process. NE Ent 03:02, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Guerillero, it's called being old. NE Ent 11:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Kingofaces43

First, I think what Tryptofish said in their section should be the main consideration here and pass on potentially narrowing wording too much.

If Arbs do feel an amendment is needed for clarity, I'm going to put on my entomologist/pesticide background hat on for a second. I'd suggest replacing agricultural chemicals with pesticides and related chemicals. The term pesticide covers these specific types (e.g., herbicides, insecticides, etc.) listed in the table. A pesticide includes the active ingredient (e.g., glyphosate) and other major components in the mixture such as surfactants or shelf life extenders (PCBs are one past example). The "non-active" ingredients are why I included related chemicals to reduce definition gaming. Some pesticides contain multiple active ingredients, such as Agent Orange, but mixtures are still a pesticide nonetheless.

Most pesticides are multi-use where some are used for agriculture, urban/home use, backyard, etc. I believe the drafters included the term agricultural chemicals as a broad term for pesticides, or maybe they weren't aware they are used in broader areas than just agriculture that are not always easily separated by use in a topic. If so, using the term pesticides shouldn't change the intended meaning at all. It would also prevent the bans from extending to unneeded topics like fertilizer. I can think of only a few controversial agricultural chemicals that wouldn't be covered by this change, but they aren't the locus of this dispute. I don't believe clarification is needed on companies as "a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic. . ." That would mean that since DuPont is a major producer of pesticides, topic banned editors should be staying away from the page altogether with the broadly construed qualifier.

If other editors or Arbs can think of instances where my proposed wording could allow editing in a problem area, I'm happy to talk wordsmithing and definitions. This should be more concise than just agricultural chemical though and cut down on the potential for overly broad application of the bans. However, I would suggest not "fixing" it until we've actually found something that's broke first. Arbs could also just simply clarify here without amendment that agricultural chemicals can include pesticides of any sort, and leave the agricultural chemical bit as a discretionary call for admins (e.g., water being far enough away from the locus of dispute). Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by DrChrissy

I am making this statement according to WP:BANEX to clarify the wording-change proposed by User:Tryptofish. Tryptofish has suggested "...with "organisms" changed to "plants" in DrChrissy's case". I would like to remind the community that WP:Banning policy states "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive, but to allow them to edit the rest of Misplaced Pages." Tryptofish must produce evidence that I have been disruptive on pages relating to genetically modified plants.DrChrissy 20:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: By suggesting the wording change, you are effectively making a statement that you believe I have been disruptive in editing the area of genetically modified plants. An editor should be prepared to substantiate such allegations by providing evidence. Where is this evidence? Please feel free to repeat any pertinent evidence presented during the case.DrChrissy 20:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: I have emailed ArbCom to request an amendment on the basis that there is not a single shred of evidence presented either in the case or elsewhere that I have been disruptive to editing the area of genetically modified plants. I have been found guilty and had a topic ban imposed on me with a complete absence of evidence. Your proposed word changing further maligns my name by again accusing me of disruptive editing of genetically modified plants. So, I challenge you to present the evidence of where I have been disruptive.DrChrissy 20:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• I am seeking clarification of the DS, 1RR and my topic ban currently worded as "agricultural chemicals". It has been suggested that "pesticides and related chemicals" could be used instead. Unfortunately, I feel these are both too broad. This is especially because some editors are arguing forceably that the simple mention of the term which is the subject of the sanction thereby makes that page part of the sanction. This will make sensible editing almost impossible. In my own case, I mainly edit articles on animals, their behaviour and welfare. The article Colony collapse disorder in bees has a section on pesticides. Does this mean the article is subject to DS and 1R to all editors and I am topic banned from it? The article Dolphin mentions pesticides. Does this mean the article is subject to DS and 1R for all editors and I am topic banned from it? The article Sheep mentions pesticides...and so on. Fortunately, I believe there is a simple and suitable remedy for this, although it may not be favourable for some. Rather than a topic ban, have a page ban. It seemed to me that the major focus of disruption leading to "agricultural chemicals" was on the Glyphosate page. Why not have the ban limited to just the Glyphosate page and it's Talk page. (There may be others in this area that have been disruptive, but these should be able to locate.) By having a page ban for some editors, the page will be protected (the point of sanctions rather than punishment) and breaches will be much more easily identifiable and action easier to implement. Other unrelated pages will not have the DS and 1RR imposed. If drama arises on other pages in the future, deal with this in the future.DrChrissy 20:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Mrjulesd

Just to say: the likely reason for the Agent Orange article coming under scrutiny of SageRad and others is because of its close links to Monsanto. Monsanto and Dow Chemical were the two main manufacturers. So this less than salubrious history may be used as a guilt by association in connection with their GMO products and associated pesticides.

I think there is a case for disallowing of editing of articles closely related to Monsanto, although there could be endless wiki-lawyering over which articles this applies to. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 00:09, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

On the one hand I wouldn't want to see anyone prevented from taking part in Vietnam era articles. On the other hand I wouldn't want to see editors gaming the system to further their advocacy by going after these articles. Herbicidal warfare, agent orange, the other Rainbow Herbicides and ect would seem to fall under the topic ban. I'd also ask that you consider making it clear that if anyone attempts to game these sanctions that it can lead to a topic ban.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:22, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: for the sake of clarity, when you say that an individual should ask for clarification on the scope of their topic ban if they are genuinely unsure, you do mean go somewhere such as AE and not here?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Semitransgenic

chemicals directly connected with agricultural biotechnology and GM tech are the concern. A more accurate statement would read:

• all pages relating to agricultural biotechnology and directly associated chemicals, genetically modified organisms, and other GM technologies broadly construed. Semitransgenic _talk. 14:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero, honestly, the intention is not to shrink the scope of the ban, but to find more exacting language such that we avoid overreach. The arbitration was about GM technologies, very specific agricultural chemicals are included in this, broadening the reach of the arbitration PD such that it restricts the free editing of articles that are not directly associated with GM technologies is not an outcome that serves Misplaced Pages's aims. Semitransgenic _talk. 14:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Count Iblis

Why not nominate one expert editor in the field who till now has been uninvolved in this case, who will monitor the editing of the topic ban editors and communicate with them if there is a problem w.r.t. the topic ban? That way you can avoid overly broad topic ban restrictions while still making sure there are no problems w.r.t. the problematic editing in the GMO topic area. If in the opinion of the appointed monitor the communication was not effective then AE intervention will be the next step. Count Iblis (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Genetically modified organisms: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion

• The topic ban is for all pages that fall in the following categories genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. This is a natural language "and" since we are't writing symbolic logic statements or SQL statements; the topic ban is not for the intersection of the two topics like some are trying to claim.

  Further, the traveling circus seems to have moved from Roundup to another Monsanto chemical that is controversial. I do not care how much like (or dislike) Monsanto, Du Pont, or any other multinational corporation; you are on an encyclopedia not a place to right great wrongs that you see in the world. If you can not act like adults around the fringes of your topic ban it will be extended to something very broad or a site ban. This is not the first time that groups of editors have caused issues in a number of closely related topic areas, the American Politics area comes to mind, and the only way that we can deal with this is broad sanctions.

  Colleagues, would all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, Monsanto, or pesticides and related chemicals, broadly construed be a better alternative for all of you to nip this at the bud and to prevent a litany of future cases with the same parties? --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Update based on recommendations above --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Capeo: I do like that wording. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:11, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @NE Ent: Sometimes I wonder where you get your pop-culture references from. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Semitransgenic: I don't see a reason to shrink the scope of the ban. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @DrChrissy: You should avoid any section of any page relating to your topic ban. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Wuerzele: You are breaking your restriction if you are doing more than engaging in good faith clarification --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @Tryptofish: those expanded areas are a feature, not a bug, of the proposed (and former) wording. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
• I have no issue with adding "commercially produced" to the ban wording (though I suspect anyone trying to claim that "water" or "nitrogen" is covered as an agricultural chemical would be laughed out of AE), but yes, the intent is to keep people out of the bickering over the commercial chemicals. Other than that, if we need to broaden it, we will. Being topic banned means to take those subjects off your watchlist, avoid and do not discuss them at all, and leave the area entirely. It does not mean to stand on the sidelines and shout in, nor to keep tiptoeing right along the line. Seraphimblade 20:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Were I topic banned on something, I would avoid the entire general area, rather than try to find ways to get as close to it as possible without triggering the ban. DGG ( talk ) To elucidate, asking the question is a reasonable exception to the ban, editing almost any of the pages would be covered. I would strongly advise not testing it. DGG ( talk ) 16:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with my colleagues - if you are topic banned, stay away from the topic area and do not attempt to test the boundaries. If you are genuinely uncertain whether a page falls within the ban, go edit productively and collaboratively somewhere completely unrelated for a while. After at least a couple of weeks of this (ideally months rather than weeks), if you still want to edit that article ask yourself again whether it is covered by your topic ban - if it is, don't. If you a still really unsure then you can ask for clarification. If you are asking for clarification immediately after the ban is imposed you haven't understood the point of the ban.
  As for clarification, I'm happy with the suggestion by Guerillero and/or the suggestion by Capeo. Thryduulf (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
  • @Serialjoepsycho: requests for clarification should be made here, but they should only be requested in good faith and should not demonstrate a desire to skirt as close as possible to the edge of the ban. Thryduulf (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
• As my colleagues have said, don't test the boundaries, just show self-control and spend time editing other project areas, demonstrating that you can edit productively and non-contentiously. "GMOs, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them" seems good. Doug Weller (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Seraphimblade. NativeForeigner 23:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Amendment request: American politics 2

Initiated by Nocturnalnow at 17:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

American politics 2 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Topic ban from "American Politics after 1932" imposed as a discretionary sanction under Remedy 1.2

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Nocturnalnow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• D.Creish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Vesuvius Dogg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• NorthBySouthBaranof
• D.Creish
• Vesuvius Dogg
• Spartaz
• NuclearWarfare
• EdJohnston

Information about amendment request

• Narrow the scope of the topic ban to Huma Abedin.

Statement by Nocturnalnow

The information, comments etc. which are within the request for enforcement link show, I think, that the ban is too broad even if accepting all of the "evidence" against me. I urge ArbCom to read the statements by other editors and results section on that request. Also, please note that I have been a productive editor for over 8 years with no blocks, and over 5 thousand problem free edits, most related to U.S. politics, when including these Usernames] which are noted at the top of my User and Talk pages.(I am a very old guy and had forgotten my passwords when taking a wikibreak; I now have my password written down so I should never need another User name).

The submission for enforcement was, imo, a flawed and biased process throughout, e.g.: User:NorthBySouthBaranofonly asked for a ban on Huma Abedin. The submitter had asked for and been denied the same ban a few weeks earlier. The Submitter misrepresented the result of his prior request as if it was a "strong warning" sanction against solely me, whereas actually it was a general admonition that future edit warring could result in administrative action and a complete reading of the "results" recommendations reveals that the Submitter himself was identified as being as much of a problem at the BLP as myself.

Within less than 1 day of the submission, which I did not even know about, User:EdJohnston left this message on my talk page. He also simultaneously recommended this topic wide ban in the "result" section which, I think, had a first day prejudicial effect and was unfair towards me. in addition, Ed drew some sort of non-existent co-relation between a defensive comment I made on a User's talk page and Ed's conclusion from that one edit that I have "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics" i.e.wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics.Ed also mis-characterized the findings of the earlier request with use of the word "proposed".

Ed's initial first day recommendation was; *We are seeing a rerun of the BLP problems at Huma Abedin, so soon after the last AE complaint in which sanctions against Nocturnalnow were proposed. I would advise an indefinite ban of User:Nocturnalnow from American politics since 1932 under WP:ARBAPDS on all pages of Misplaced Pages. A review of contributions suggests that Nocturnalnow has wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics, including those about Hillary Clinton. It is not easy to see Nocturnalnow as being able to edit neutrally, given the way he handled evidence on the Abedin article. So a ban only from that article might not be sufficient. EdJohnston (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Later, User:NuclearWarfare came into the Result section in Supprot of Ed's recommendation and quickly asked for CheckUser towards an IP who oppose the ban:i.e.

• {{checkuser needed}} I would appreciate it if a checkuser to take a look at 50.196.177.155, who has commented above. NW (Talk) 22:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• @NuclearWarfare: What do you want to know about the IP? (please ping when you respond).--Bbb23 (talk) 22:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Bbb23: Whether there is any evidence that an established user has used that IP address. Entering a dispute and citing Misplaced Pages policy while providing diffs at AE and ANI seems like...unlikely behavior from a new editor editing Misplaced Pages for the first time. NW (Talk) 23:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

•  In progress. It's a crap shoot, but I might luck out. I won't be able to publicly disclose the named account, though, per the privacy policy.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not surprisingly, nothing.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• To be expected I suppose. Thanks Bbb23. NW (Talk) 21:28, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

This publicized ( in the Result section here) action by NW' (Talk) has the effect, even if unintended, of casting suspicion on that IP's statement and objectivity as well as casting suspicion that I or one of the other editors here (who are opposed to a topic wide ban) used that IP as a sockpuppet, thus implying that any or all of the statements opposing this request are less than valid. Please have a look at this particular usage. I believe this usage breaks the spirit and letter of this Misplaced Pages policy, i.e."checks must only be made in order to prevent or reduce potential or actual disruption, or to investigate credible, legitimate concerns of bad faith editing." The reasons given by NuclearWarfare to the Checkuser are not within the scope of our policy, imo, and further damaged the process by which I was given such a broad topic ban, imo.

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

The checkusering of an IP which had made two comments on two separate project pages indicating a knowledge and understanding of policies, etc. can only be described as good-faith. As for narrowing the scope of the topic ban, I have no particular opinion, other than to restate the issues that Nocturnalnow presented on Huma Abedin; to wit, a persistent determination to use her Misplaced Pages biography to depict her in as negative a manner as possible, apparently because of his personal political disagreement with Abedin and/or Abedin's employer, Hillary Clinton. If the committee believes that Nocturnalnow can be trusted to edit other articles and biographies of modern political figures in a neutral, policy-compliant manner, I have no objection. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by D.Creish

Statement by Vesuvius Dogg

Nocturnalnow is understandably upset at a broad ban, particularly because his problematic editing history under this ID has been limited to Hillary Clinton and Huma Abedin. I have said before that a topic ban related to these two seems to me more appropriate than the broader ban, which seems vindictive in spirit. (I'm a disinterested editor w/o interaction history w/ Nocturnalnow or editing history on those two pages.) Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Spartaz

• I don't believe there is anything add beyond the contents and discussion in the relevant AE thread . I do not intend to comment further unless there are specific questions for me from the committee. Spartaz 00:23, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by NuclearWarfare

I have no statement to make at this time. Drop me a note if my input would be valuable. NW (Talk) 22:36, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

Statement by L235

I'm seeing phrases like reasonable exercise of admin discretion being used. Is the Committee considering these appeals with the standard of review being abuse of discretion? It seems bureaucratic to even use a standard of review like that (only overturning if the enforcing admin erred) rather than considering appeals fresh, on the merits, "if I were the enforcing admin, considering everything, would I have imposed this sanction or a lesser one?" -style review. If the Committee does defer to enforcing admins on appeal at ARCA, could that be made clear in the procedures? It's not currently clear that the Committee will defer to enforcing admins, or to what level the Committee will do so. Kevin (aka L235  · t  · c  · ping in reply) 03:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade: Interesting; I don't participate much at AN/ANI, but, for example, block appeals (which are much more analogous to sanctions appeals than DRV/other closure reviews) are granted or durations shortened based on a consensus of editors believing that they would have made a shorter block themselves, even if they would also hold that the block could be reasonable under the blocking policy. I don't suppose this is related to this specific request, though, so I'll shut up unless you want further reply. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 04:38, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Mouse001

I do not agree with the admin's decision and I believe that it was unfairly biased against NocturnalNow. Much of the statements that were made by NorthBySouthBaranof and others supporting the ban were discredited, including the reasoning for including two out of four of the "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy" that were presented in the arbitration request. Disregarding the "truth-fudging" by NorthSouthBaranof, I think many reasonable and objective people would see this is minor mishap that should not result in NocturnalNow receiving topic ban from US Politics, let alone a ban from Huma Abedin.

NocturnalNow also raises a good point about the conclusion by Ed. I believe it was improper because it was determined so speedily without adequate evaluation of NorthBySouthBaranof's statements and sound reasoning provided by others who opposed the ban.

Lastly, if this ban is to be kept I suggest that NorthBySouthBaranof to receive a ban as well, else this would be evidence of a double standard on Misplaced Pages, because he is responsible for much of the edit warring at Huma Abedin and holds sole responsibility for the first two diffs that he himself listed under "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy". He was found just as much responsible for the BLP violations as NocturnalNow in the very first arbitration request that he submitted against NocturnalNow, and he has again committed violations (that are worse than those committed by NocturnalNow) so he should be held to the same standard. He also appears to have a habit of using language that is unfit for Misplaced Pages because it does not foster constructive discussion.--Mouse001 (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

American politics 2: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Cleaned a bit. Kevin (aka L235  · t  · c  · ping in reply) 20:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Notes: I've notified the listed parties and added diffs. Also, a quick reminder to the filing editor that pursuant to WP:ACDS#appeals.notes, once this request has been reviewed by the Committee via this ARCA request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235  · t  · c  · ping in reply) 20:15, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
• I'll actually recuse to give a statement. Kevin (aka L235  · t  · c  · ping in reply) 03:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Decline --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Seraphimblade. I strongly object to the idea that it is within our mandate or even a good idea to change admin's non-egregious decisions because we disagree with them. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
    • @L235: indefinite and not me infinite; in 6 months to a year I might entertain an appeal based off of a user's ability to edit non-disruptively in other areas. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
• The topic ban is certainly a reasonable exercise of admin discretion, so I would decline to alter that in any way. As to the checkuser, I think there was good cause to believe that the IP was in fact an experienced editor editing project space while logged out, and I think it was reasonable to check. Regardless, as the check came up empty, it wouldn't have had any effect on the ultimate outcome. Seraphimblade 22:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
  • @L235: Yes, "abuse of discretion" would be a good way to describe the standard. That's really the standard when we review any administrative actions—not "Would I have done the exact same thing?" but "Is this a reasonable and defensible action given the circumstances?". I would see it as far more bureaucratic for us to be nitpicking and second-guessing every admin action, or reversing or modifying them in cases where they were not egregiously excessive, abusive, or obviously mistaken. That's always been common practice when reviewing admin actions, not just with us but in cases like a DRV or closure review as well. Seraphimblade 04:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

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